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Supplement to assist with weight loss?

Discussion in 'Health & Body' started by prepster, Sep 26, 2004.

  1. jeffgwa

    jeffgwa Member

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    Right, diet is the most important part of losing weight, but foregoing exercise is ridiculous. Â Your body will breakdown muscle at a much higher ratio than it would with a diet integrating regular exercise. Â Among other things, exercise also allows you to raise your total daily calorie expenditure. Â There's a huge difference between creating a 1,000 kcal deficit by eating 1200 calories a day and no exercise, or by eating 1800 calories a day with an additional 600 calories burned during exercise. Â As soon as you start underfeeding your body makes hormonal adjustments to keep you from starving (slowed metabolic rate, fatigue, increased appetite). Exercise throttles bad hormones response, while helping to maintain good hormone levels. People that diet without exercise find that they end up dieting for months at a time and usually never succeed in looking the way they want in the mirror because muscle is breaking down at an alarmingly faster rate. Â Unless your genetically blessed with amazing nutrient partitioning (which you probably aren't if you're dieting at all) you'll never get six pack abs without diet and exercise. Â So yeah, I suppose if you want crude weight loss, diet exclusively is the way to go. Â But if you want fat loss integrate some cardio and weight training. Edit: Grammar/spelling/clarification.
     
  2. Bradford

    Bradford Senior member

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    Great post - but what's a bronchiodialator?

    Bradford
     
  3. jeffgwa

    jeffgwa Member

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    Taken from the Vasopro product description:
    "Expectorant Bronchodilator. Take for the temporary relief of shortness of breath, tightness of chest, and wheezing due to bronchial asthma. Helps loosen mucus and thin bronchial secretions to drain bronchial tubes and make cough more productive. "

    It's really funny if you do see the truck stop versions. They're individual packaged and have names like "MEGA ENERGY BOOST" and "SUPER BUZZ" in brightly colored packaging. Then when you pick it up it says "take for temporary asthma relief". The FDA is really funny sometimes.
     
  4. j

    j Senior member Admin

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    Bronchodilators open up air passages. The guaifenesin that's usually included in those pills is the expectorant part; it's the main ingredient in Robitussin (sometimes found as Guai-tuss generic). It loosens up phlegm.
     
  5. greg_atlanta

    greg_atlanta Senior member

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    I'm finding that's more and more true, esp. as I get older (32 now). Exercise firms things up, but it also makes me hungry. Cutting way back on alcohol should be the first step for most guys.
     
  6. faustian bargain

    faustian bargain Senior member

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    (marc37 @ 30 Sep. 2004, 07:53) The most vital aspect to weightloss is the following: only use diet to lose the weight. lf you depend on  excercise the weight loss will not be sustainable over the long term. Trust me here: you can only sustain long-term weightloss by diet and diet only. Amen.
    Right, diet is the most important part of losing weight, but foregoing exercise is ridiculous. Â Your body will breakdown muscle at a much higher ratio than it would using a diet integrating exercise. Â Among other things, exercise also allows you to raise your calories expenditure. Â There's a huge difference between eating 1200 calories a day and no exercise, or 1800 calories a day with an additional 600 calories burned during exercise. Â Exercise throttles bad hormones response, and does it based to maintain good hormone levels. Â As soon as you start underfeeding your body makes adjustments to keep you from starving (slowed metabolic rate, fatigue, increased appetite). Â People that diet without exercise find that they end up dieting for months at a time and usually never succeed in looking the way they want in the mirror because muscle is breaking down at an alarmingly faster rate. Â Unless your genetically blessed with amazing nutrient partitioning (which you probably aren't if you're dieting at all) you'll never get six pack abs without diet and exercise. Â So yeah, I suppose if you want crude weight loss, diet exclusively is the way to go. Â But if you want fat loss integrate some cardio/weight training.
    thank you for the antidote to crackpottery. agreed with all of the above, plus one more point: since your metabolism adjusts to the lower calorie intake, you have to keep *lowering* it in order to lose weight, or even to maintain. your body only burns so many calories per day without exercise, and by consuming only that many you will have difficulty maintaining your health. basically you can spiral down into famine condition. not a good look.
     
  7. jeffgwa

    jeffgwa Member

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    You're welcome. I'd like to expand a little on the point you made, by noting that for this very reason, diets that include cyclical refeeds (short periods of increased caloric intake during a diet) are the ones that are the most effective. For a long time, it was thought that the weekly "cheat day" that some diets utilize was effective because of the psychological aspect of being to eat food that actually tastes good once a week. Turns out that you're body responds to this by increasing your metabolism.

    Generally, a cheat day should not be "go f'n hog wild on ice cream and potato chips for 24 hours" but more in line with eating 100-150% of maintenance calories (2400-3200kcal or so for the average male). But again, only once a week and you'll notice the least side effects (bloating) if you go easy on the fat and sugars.
     
  8. faustian bargain

    faustian bargain Senior member

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    a few years ago i read, actually printed out, an article/interview by bill phillips with some sports nutritionist doctor from scandinavia, which presented a regimen (combined with weightlifting - this was directed at bodybuilders) wherein the 'cycle' was given a period of about 3 weeks on, three weeks off. in the 'on' weeks one would do heavy bulking up, eating like crazy and doing heavy lift workouts. in the 'off' weeks one would pare back on the lifting, do much cardio, and eat a really spare diet. the result was supposed to help stimulate muscle growth by (i think) stimulating hormone levels. the theory was based in evolutionary biology. really interesting, but the level of discipline required scared me. i guess if one is a true bodybuilder already, one has the discipline aspect covered. i forget what it was called - something like the 'ABCDE' program? /andrew ****edit: found it: it's called the Anabolic Burst Cycling of Diet and Exercise (ABCDE)
     
  9. jeffgwa

    jeffgwa Member

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    Okay, about a half page in this had already set off my bullshit meter twice. First, it's on MuscleMedia's website, Muscle Media prints a revolutionary new training program every month. This statement was what really got me though:

    "In fact, researchers have shown this relatively simple muscle-building "secret" has allowed healthy test subjects, who didn't even train with weights, to put on over 4.38 lbs of lean body mass and 2 lbs of fat in only 12 days."

    First of all, this sounds like bullshit right off the bat, in fact I'm not even sure this is possible, and even if it is, only under certain circumstances. I'll look up the cite later, but for now let's just look at the statement. First of all, lean body mass is subjective, for all we know this could mean water weight, because its not fat. If this is how they got their numbers, I can put on 4.38 lbs of LBM in the next hour.

    Secondly, if this was printed 7 years ago, and produced miracle results don't you think the body building community would be all over it? These people inject themselves with chemicals, starve themselves, torture themselves with weight training, etc.; so surely they'd be able to handle this diet. If you check out BB forums, the general consensus is "not enough muscle, too much fat". Every success story I found noted major tweaks to the overfeeding/anabolic period.

    Finally, Bill Phillips, is an author with a product line produced by EAS, one of the larger supplement companies. The original version of this diet has several differences, most of which encourage the sales of EAS/Body For Life products. Hmmm....
     
  10. faustian bargain

    faustian bargain Senior member

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    heh. yeah, bill phillips is a moneymaking machine. the hype and sales pitches are pretty easy to distinguish from the useful information though. you read enough fitness magazines, and your ability to filter out salesmanship is sharpened. i have no idea about the claim with the muscle gain through dieting. seems farfetched, but it's an interesting concept nonetheless - what if you *could* stimulate an anabolic state just by manipulating the diet? the diet itself has little to do with EAS supplements. mr. phillips does interject some 'suggestions' for 'improving' the diet, if i remember correctly. [​IMG] anyway, just thought i'd toss it out there, as it seemed to relate to the dieting topic.
    good point. i stopped doing BB research some time ago, so i never really found out if that diet caught on. i wish they had a followup article. /andrew
     
  11. jeffgwa

    jeffgwa Member

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    EVERYTHING in Muscle Media has to do with EAS supplements. And before you even try to contest that, do a little research and find the parent company that owns Muscle Media. I'll give you a hint... it's EAS.
     
  12. faustian bargain

    faustian bargain Senior member

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    yes, i know that. bill phillips = EAS = body-for-life = musclemedia = (now) high point media (at least that was true when this article was written...he has since stepped down as head of EAS and musclemedia, AFAIK), but read the ABCDE article: the main principle is 14 days of high-calorie eating, and 14 days of low- or maintenance-calorie eating. bill is the only one who pushes the supplements in the article, IIRC. just ignore bill, listen to torbjorn akerfeldt.

    the ABCDE program is referenced elsewhere on the web as well, including bodybuilding.com, and Muscle and Fitness, a competitor to the EAS conglomerate. so it's not married to EAS, it's its own thing.

    /andrew
     
  13. jeffgwa

    jeffgwa Member

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    Yeah, supposedly the T-Mag version was quite good. Of course, I think it's offline now that T-Mag has descended into some kind of online store. Anyway, I still think there are better bulking diets out there. I personally a slower increase in muscle mass with minimal fat gain as opposed to as much LBM as possible. Another problem I see with ABCDE is that hormonal balance changes much quicker than the cycles do. 2 weeks at calories restriction will put you in hormonal hell, and will probably cause novices to jump into the bulking phase sooner. I think with strict calorie control throughout the diet, it would be effective, but I'd be extremely weary of attempting at low body fat levels when your body is bending over backwards to put on fat. Lots of good things have been said about the training/nutritional info at http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com. Yeah, they make supplements, but all they make is protein powders and creatine. I doubt you'll find a body builder or nutrition expert in the country that will deny the effectiveness of those two supps. Except liquid creatine, that stuff is crap. Edit: Link was misspelled.
     
  14. Centaurion

    Centaurion New Member

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    my 0.02$ I dont want to start a flame or anything like that, but I feel the need to call BS on some of the advice given on this board when it comes to training, and especially weightloss. The secret behind weightloss is simple ; just consume less cals than you burn everyday. Start off by finding your maintance level (how many cals that you have to consume in order to stay at the same weight), then cut it by 200. This combined with a weightlifting/cardio schedule should give you some decent results. You should aim to drop 1lbs-1.5lbs a week and take it slowly from there. You might wanna read this for a start : http://www.wannabebig.com/article.php?articleid=156 and check out www.wannabebig.com for more articles/tips. and if you have any questions, post them at WannaBeBigForums i can honestly say that this is the best forum out there when it comes to training.
     
  15. MilanoStyle

    MilanoStyle Senior member

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    I been weight training for almost 10 years, I have seen many guys gain wieght and losing weight. According to what I have experienced personally and witnessed from other people , the best way(s) to lose weight is following way:

    1. Diet. Eat distributed even amount of calories. Never over eat.

    2. Cardio. Wanna lose weight and keep it off? Then boost your metabolic level by enduring your longativty muscle tissues. Cardio training exactly does that.

    3. Weight training. Weight training itself does not melt away fat. you will actually look bulkier if you do weight training alone. What you need to do is combine cardio and weight training. This way you are exerting muscle tissue so that its buring calories even while you sleep.

    Do all that persistanly than I guarantee that you will drop wieght and stay dropped.

    PS: You cannot not pick and choose where you want to lose weight. Everyone varies in where they lose fat first, but in most cases arms or face. Last resource is the belly. Thus if you have lost sufficient amount of fat on other body parts, you'll see your belly starts to move in ..
     
  16. jeffgwa

    jeffgwa Member

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    If you've correctly gauged your metabolic rate/caloric expenditure and cut 200 calories a day, you'd be losing less than a half pound per week (~3500 calories per pound, -200 calories x 7 days a week = -1400 calories = ~ 2/5ths of a pound lost per week = nowhere near 1-1.5lbs a week). A deficit of less than 500 calories a day is so unbelievably slow most people would rather accept being fat than deal with the frustration of dieting for months on end. Also, since the deficit is so low, your body will adjust to it within a few weeks and you'd be losing miniscule amount or no fat at all and far more susceptable to fatigue. Since you mention WannaBeBig.com, there are a couple interviews with Lyle McDonald, whom I've already mentioned in this thread, on that site. I highly suggest everyone interested in the subject of fatloss read them. Few people on the planet have an understanding of partitioning and fat loss comparable to Lyle's. Edit: Spelling error.
     
  17. Centaurion

    Centaurion New Member

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    Yes you are correct that a deficit of 200cals a day will not give you huge results, but I threw that number out there as a starting point. I dont believe that just swithcing over to a diet with, ie, a deficit of 1500cal is the way to go, but rather slowly go from maintance level and down to a level where one is comfortable with the weightloss.

    I believe that one should start off with a deficit of around 200cals a day and see how that works (for a couple of days/ a week just to get a feeling for the diet), after all, we all have different metabolic rates. And then work down to a deficit level that gives one the desired results and one is comfortable with. Sure, after sometime the weightloss will stagnate, which then it is necessary to reduce the intake of cals once again and etc.
     

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