Sartorial mythbusting

[Despos]

Originally Posted by voxsartoria

How about soft non-drape? - B
Yes, I concur... the so-no-drape This should appease both sides of the issue

 

[voxsartoria]

Originally Posted by Despos

Yes, I concur... the so-no-drape

This should appease both sides of the issue

Or infuriate both posses.

I feel that you should be granted Goon Member status...it takes three votes to join but only one to be blackballed. This is a troublesome bylaw, however, since only one official Goon Member exists.

- B

 

[Despos]

Are you saying I am blackballed? Oh the injustice!

I'm not feeling too good about the future of this page. How about you Voxx?

 

[voxsartoria]

Originally Posted by Despos

Are you saying I am blackballed? Oh the injustice! I'm not feeling too good about the future of this page. How about you Voxx?
So far, I give it four stars (denominating stars undetermined.) Could it be that there are no hard and fast ways of making clothes for the able stylist, cutter, tailor and d fitter? I think that most of the anti-drapist commentary is simply A&S hate. What say you, Beldonian? Oh yes: I'm having steak and eggs; drinking a martini; and listening to a live Bluegrass rendition of a punk rock song. - B

 

[Despos]

Many times I have asked other tailors what method they would use to get an effect and have received polar opposite answers but they did achieve the same result. So there is truth in your statement.

I have only been asked to do a truly draped jacket by one client in the early 90's and I did what I think was a poor job of it. He wanted full accordion like, rolling waves of drape on the front and back. I think I would do a better job today.
A true drape effect is more than cloth rolling over someone's chest. The jacket length can be long or short but the waistline is lowered changing the jackets proportions.
The only time I have cut the haircloth away was when a client felt the armhole was constricting. Cutting away the haircloth has two purposes. It allows for the roll of the cloth and positions the roll to break in a specific area. It gives some comfort that offsets the new position of the armhole. The armhole is moved out from the natural joint of your arm and chest and the softer chest is more forgiving. I prefer a soft haircloth with the weft running vertical and extending the full girth of the chest. It gives a wavy/drapey effect across the whole chest and not just at the edge. Another method would omit haircloth and use a piece of hymo as a chest piece or omit this extra layer and only use flannelette. The decision would be based on the weight and body of the cloth used.
Mainstream clients don't recognize drape for what it is, they think the jacket is just too big in the chest. A fuller chest, draped or not, is necessary on certain frames to give a good balanced look to the wearer. Many of what people here refer to drape is not what I recognize or would label as drape. Definitions do vary. Pucci in Chicago was famous for a draped jacket. Many bigband leaders from the 40's and 50's wore his look. Enormous chest and blade with 100 wrinkles across the back. Perry Mason/Ricky Riccardo wore cleaned up versions of this idea.

Oh yes: I had egg whites with crumbled spicy Italian sausage covered in tomato sauce and 2 espresso's, listening to U2.

 

[Sator]

Originally Posted by mafoofan

I felt up my Rubinacci jackets this morning. I think the canvas extends all the way to the scye; I feel no break whatsoever.

Raphael explained to me how he views the sort of drape you sometimes see folding between the chest and underarm of his jackets, which appears similar to what sometimes appears in Rubinacci jackets. He said that he simply uses a soft canvas and different amounts of drape appear, depending on the underlying physique of the client.

Considering that my jackets show very little folding at the arm, yet have plenty of grabbable cloth there, I think that's what's going on with Rubinacci.

This is part of the reason why I have often questioned whether Rubinacci represents an example of drape at all. I often struggle to see the vertical fold before the armscye, which is sometimes seen but often not, even on coats made for the same client. Fullness of the chest per se is not drape.

 

[TheFoo]

Originally Posted by Sator

This is part of the reason why I have often questioned whether Rubinacci represents an example of drape at all. I often struggle to see the vertical fold before the armscye, which is sometimes seen but often not, even on coats made for the same client. Fullness of the chest per se is not drape.

I've pointed this out, too. I think we're all talking about slightly different things when we use the word. I don't think Rubinacci uses what could be called a 'drape cut'. I think they just cut a soft jacket with a shapely chest and sometimes extended shoulders. The amount of 'drape' at the scye appears to vary a great deal and doesn't look like the folding that is characteristic of A&S.

 

[Sator]

The other thing that has been pointed out before by Etutee is how the Rubinacci cut is strongly waisted with slim trousers. The Full English version of the drape cut has more sausages and bacon on it - much fuller in the silhouette throughout, right down to the trousers. A Rubinacci isn't the Full English any more than Zuppa Inglese is English. I distinguish between the a full chest and a draped chest. However, I also think there is a difference between a "drape cut" and coat to which a touch of drape has been cut into the chest. This is a good example:

Cyril Castle has cut a typically slim 1960s style lounge suit but has added a touch of drape to the chest. However, this is true drape rather than a plain full chest of the sort you see on a Rubinacci. For more photos of the same lounge suit and other examples from Castle cut for Roger Moore see here.

 

[voxsartoria]

Originally Posted by Sator

The other thing that has been pointed out before by Etutee is how the Rubinacci cut is strongly waisted with slim trousers. The Full English version of the drape cut has more sausages and bacon on it - much fuller in the silhouette throughout, right down to the trousers. A Rubinacci isn't the Full English any more than Zuppa Inglese is English.

I distinguish between the a full chest and a draped chest. However, I also think there is a difference between a "drape cut" and coat to which a touch of drape has been cut into the chest. This is a good example:

Cyril Castle has cut a typically slim 1960s style lounge suit but has added a touch of drape to the chest. However, this is true drape rather than a plain full chest of the sort you see on a Rubinacci. For more photos of the same lounge suit and other examples from Castle cut for Roger Moore see here.

I have to take your comments about trousers with a grain of salt.

The Ambrosis cut a lot of the Rubinacci suit trousers that you see in photographs, and continue to cut the trousers for the Solitos. Those slim trou are not Rubinacci, although they make their own trousers now in about the same style. We have no, to my knowledge, contemporary photographs for pre-Ambrosi Rubinacci pants...if anyone knows of such photographs, post them up.

The Scholte archetype for the London Cut is almost entirely about the jacket, since his most famous client had nearly all of his trousers cut by other tailors, notably Forster and H. Harris. The idea that either Forster or Harris were taking marching orders from Scholte would be, with all due respect, absurd. What Scholte cut for others is different, but the photographic library is actually not rich. So, if we see the DoW wearing full trousers (with attached underwear and girdles), that ain't Scholte.


- B

 

[Sator]

However, it is true as a period cut. Period issues of The Tailor & Cutter, discuss how in the Drape Era the drape was extended down through to the waist. They even use the term "draped waist". Now, let nobody say that the coat is square cut and boxy. Rather it means that any waist is suggested rather than it being cut trim to the figure (like it is on the Cyril Castle example for Roger Moore above). The whole coat ends up being somewhat full, all the way down to the skirt hem: this is the proper Full English "drape cut". So to harmonise with that you simply have to cut the trousers fuller to maintain the aesthetic balance, otherwise it would look silly.

 

[voxsartoria]

Originally Posted by Sator

However, it is true as a period cut. Period issues of The Tailor & Cutter, discuss how in the Drape Era the drape was extended down through to the waist. They even use the term "draped waist". Now, let nobody say that the coat is square cut and boxy. Rather it means that any waist is suggested rather than it being cut trim to the figure (like it is on the Cyril Castle example for Roger Moore above). The whole coat ends up being somewhat full, all the way down to the skirt hem: this is the proper Full English "drape cut". So to harmonise with that you simply have to cut the trousers fuller to maintain the aesthetic balance, otherwise it would look silly.

I understand what you are saying. Consider, however, that A&S's early history was coincident with Scholte's peak...they did not inherit his legacy, they were competing with his living output.

Scholte's most famous client did not wear Scholte pants, and I bet that the two places that cut full trousers for the PoW/DoW made the same full trousers for their other clients of the time, who definitely did not wear draped jackets. In other words, I think that you are taking a historical fact of uniformity...the Anglo-American popularity of full lounge trousers in the 20s to the 40s...and identifying that as something intrinsically related to a particular cut of jacket. Full trousers are rooted in time, not in the style of cutting a jacket, at least in the specific situation situation that we are discussing here.

I am always suspicious of this concept of "balance." The word is often used to objectify what is more accurately called simple "preference." A lean, clean, short jacket on the right body with full trousers can look really good...and so can the reverse, a swelled or draped chest on slim trousers, like the au courant Rubinacci.


- B

 

[itsstillmatt]

Originally Posted by voxsartoria

I have to take your comments about trousers with a grain of salt.

The Ambrosis cut a lot of the Rubinacci suit trousers that you see in photographs, and continue to cut the trousers for the Solitos. Those slim trou are not Rubinacci, although they make their own trousers now in about the same style. We have no, to my knowledge, contemporary photographs for pre-Ambrosi Rubinacci pants...if anyone knows of such photographs, post them up.

The Scholte archetype for the London Cut is almost entirely about the jacket, since his most famous client had nearly all of his trousers cut by other tailors, notably Forster and H. Harris. The idea that either Forster or Harris were taking marching orders from Scholte would be, with all due respect, absurd. What Scholte cut for others is different, but the photographic library is actually not rich. So, if we see the DoW wearing full trousers (with attached underwear and girdles), that ain't Scholte.


- B
I'm not sure that the maker matters as far as R's trousers. They cut a style for each tailor, and they are fitted in the tailor shop, not the pant shop. Also, they use different inner materials for each tailor shop. I'm not sure when they stopped making for R, but it was at least a year or so before I got there. I am also not sure when they started, but the previous pantmaker, I believe, was also outsourced and probably based their R model on the same instructions Ambrosi used.

 

[RJman]

I feel the urge to weigh in, but all I can think of saying is, "Vade retro, Satanas!" and "The power of drape compels you!"

 

[voxsartoria]

Originally Posted by iammatt

I'm not sure that the maker matters as far as R's trousers. They cut a style for each tailor, and they are fitted in the tailor shop, not the pant shop. Also, they use different inner materials for each tailor shop. I'm not sure when they stopped making for R, but it was at least a year or so before I got there. I am also not sure when they started, but the previous pantmaker, I believe, was also outsourced and probably based their R model on the same instructions Ambrosi used.

Interesting.

Do the Rubinaccis display any period suits from, say, before the 1950s in any of their shops, as the Brits often do?


- B

 

[Manton]

Sator is correct that the original drape suits of the '30s were made with very full, very high-waisted trousers. The duke did not like this style and so went elsewhere. But it was "standard" for the model.