Sartorial mythbusting

[jefferyd]

Originally Posted by ohm

This is interesting. Is the mechanism for drape in the back the same?

Not at all, since there is no canvas in the back; there are other manipulations which must be done. Getting a proper, vertical drape is therefore all the more challenging, which lends to its reputation as being a beast to make well.

 

[voxsartoria]

Originally Posted by Manton

That break before the scye is to A&S what the strap and buckle design is to Hermes. Indeed, one of the things that I did not love about my Steed suits is the way the chest swelled out without breaking. To me, the break is drape, or at least an essential part of it. I didn't quite get that back then, but ordering those suits helped me learn it.

I wish jefferyd could take apart a bespoke Rubinacci and see if their canvas breaks before the scye like A&S or not.

I'm going to take a closer look at my Solito later.


- B

 

[mmkn]

Originally Posted by voxsartoria

I wish jefferyd could take apart a bespoke Rubinacci and see if their canvas breaks before the scye like A&S or not.
- B

I see what you are doing there.

- M

 

[George]

Originally Posted by voxsartoria

I wish jefferyd could take apart a bespoke Rubinacci and see if their canvas breaks before the scye like A&S or not.

I'm going to take a closer look at my Solito later.


- B

Stop ***** footing about and get the scissors out....

 

[voxsartoria]

Originally Posted by George

Stop ***** footing about and get the scissors out....

- B

 

[voxsartoria]

Originally Posted by ohm

I've seen a number of people mention that different cutters at A&S did a better job for portly clients. It always makes me wonder what that means and what the difference is between a flattering suit on a slim gentleman and a flattering suit on a portly gentleman.

- B

 

[ohm]

Originally Posted by jefferyd

Not at all, since there is no canvas in the back; there are other manipulations which must be done. Getting a proper, vertical drape is therefore all the more challenging, which lends to its reputation as being a beast to make well.

Go on...

Originally Posted by voxsartoria

- B

I feel like I'm kicking someone when they're down.
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[tailorgod]

Technically, a slim person can wear almost any style of cut given he is evenly shaped. By that I mean that none of his body sections (shoulders, chest, waist and hips) is far out of proportion.
The actual A&S cut that I have seen on the website and the BBC series let me to believe that it works well for the slimmer customer. This is supported by the pictures of some of the finished garments on their site. The pattern runs relatively straight up without turning too much towards the neck.
Even the overcut shoulder will work well unless exaggerated and will give the wearer a "sporty" appearance.

With a portly figure the problems start. When visited by Ozwald Boateng John Hitchcock explained that A&S cut a wider shoulder to make the waist look slimmer. But this works only well up to a certain amount of waist girth.
The main problem is the (vintage) cutting system they use, which has a neck point that is rather far away from the neck. For a portly person the cutter will have to add width at the front waist line to accommodate for the fullness of the belly, so the neck point will be even further away from the neck.
To get the neck hole of the coat close to the neck of the customer tailors can either manipulate the pattern or the front part (cloth). The usual procedure is to shrink the front along the line which will later become the lapel fold line.
By doing so the run of the pattern will be distorted and will create a sort of barrel like appearance (like in FNB's picture).
One trick is to give even the portly man a tapered waist above the waist. This will have a visually slimming effect when viewed from behind or front.

This is a coat I made a while back and it sits on a dummy that is a bit bigger, don't know the actual size, it might even exceed the portly range. First the lateral view (Btw, the balance is off due to the dummy):

Now the front view:

(And yes, those are a machined lapels...

)

Note the taper from the armholes down to the waist.

I'm not sure if this can be done for a portly figure without a side panel in a satisfying way.
Better and more knowledgeable tailors may correct me.
In my coat is no front dart, so there is no wedge as well, just a side panel. Makes the pattern matching a bit easier.
There are drafts without a side panel with a cut from the front dart down to the hem which is then pinched, but that will throw the pattern out of the grain line.
I'm not sure which method is used at A&S right now. Should depend on the cutter and the customers figure. My preference would be a separate side panel (with a wedge for the really belly shaped guys)!

Here is a portly guy in an English Cut coat:

Needless to say that I'm not very fond of the look of it...

 

[lasbar]

Originally Posted by voxsartoria

- B

Thank you again for that...All the married men are saluting you Vox for giving 3 minutes of pleasure.

 

[Sator]

Originally Posted by iammatt

Interesting to see that Poole and Huntsman use a long front dart, which we have heard so many times is not traditional in British clothing.

Good to see more come under the Satanic influence.

 

[tailorgod]

Originally Posted by Sator

Good to see more come under the Satanic influence.

Damn , those Brits must have copied that from the Neapolitan tailors...

 

[voxsartoria]

Originally Posted by jefferyd

I think that if you grab the chest from the outside as if you were copping a feel, you would feel the edge of the haircloth. I would find it very obvious- there will be a vertical "ridge" where it stops

This is the A&S- note the space between the haircloth and the scye

This is a very firm commercial front- note the haircloth all the way to the scye

Originally Posted by Manton

That break before the scye is to A&S what the strap and buckle design is to Hermes. Indeed, one of the things that I did not love about my Steed suits is the way the chest swelled out without breaking. To me, the break is drape, or at least an essential part of it. I didn't quite get that back then, but ordering those suits helped me learn it.

Alright...I finally got around to feeling up my clothes.

I regret to disappoint both jefferyd's and Manton's conjectures, but both my earliest Steed number and the most recent clearly have the haircloth cut away before the scye just like in the sample A&S that jefferd took apart for his blog analysis. I can clearly feel the transition, and it is in the same configuration as the A&S example Jeffery eviscerated literally and figuratively.

So, even if one has the opinion that the jackets DeBoise makes for me have cleaner arms and chest than all the other English drapist examples...whether from the mother ship or from the satellites... the underlying construction still frees the haircloth from the scye.

Since Manton's Steed dates back to the period just before I started using them (or thereabouts), perhaps his example is constructed like the Steed dinner suit, which is also an early example, Manton, is your shoulder lining set in by machine or by hand?

I am pretty sure that Edwin can cut what you like. In at least the example of stuff that I wear that he makes, it is soft with a break in the chest...just not like an accordion.

I also examined that one Solito that I have which seems to be be on the cleaner/leaner side of the jackets that the Maestro conjures up. The haircloth in mine extends right into the scye...perhaps this is something that he does in an more A&S way for the drapier numbers that he wears himself and that he makes for hip dudes like Manton. Just conjecture.

The chest assemblies in both the Steeds and Solito are exceptionally light, thin and supple...like an attractive woman.

Again, I cry out for a disassembly of a bespoke Rubinacci. I call upon iammatt to give jefferyd his first Ruby, which he does not like as much as the ones that followed.




- B

 

[TheFoo]

I felt up my Rubinacci jackets this morning. I think the canvas extends all the way to the scye; I feel no break whatsoever.

Raphael explained to me how he views the sort of drape you sometimes see folding between the chest and underarm of his jackets, which appears similar to what sometimes appears in Rubinacci jackets. He said that he simply uses a soft canvas and different amounts of drape appear, depending on the underlying physique of the client.

Considering that my jackets show very little folding at the arm, yet have plenty of grabbable cloth there, I think that's what's going on with Rubinacci.

 

[A Y]

Oh noes!!1! Structured drape?!

--Andre

 

[voxsartoria]

Originally Posted by A Y

Oh noes!!1! Structured drape?!

--Andre

How about soft non-drape?

- B