Power clean/clean and jerk/push-press/snatch/deadlift - who does them?

[drizzt3117]

Originally Posted by whacked

Update: I tried this today, 3x10 reps of about 20-35% 1RM. A few questions: - How do I keep the weights stable? I back squat then jump; every few sets the olympic bar would bounce off the back part of my shoulder and drop to a slightly lower position. This hurted a wee bit.
You're using a padded bar, right? My buddy just did what you described and held it against his back. He may have been making adjustments but I couldn't really tell from watching.

- How high should I jump? Didn't go all out myself due to the above problem.

I don't think he was getting more than a foot off the ground. It's hard to jump very high when you have > 100 lb on your back. I imagine 6" is fine to start out with but I really have no idea.

- Is there any special landing technique to reduce injury risk?

I don't know that much about the foot technique but I believe he was landing toe-first which cushioned it somewhat. Where were you doing them? My friend would do them in the cage which has a nice soft mat underneath him which I'm sure helped. Having something soft underneath you instead of concrete would seem to be a must, and non-slip surfaces are clearly best. What kind of shoes were you using? He was wearing shoes with pretty good shock absorption. This page seems to have a fairly good description of the technique, and it seems similar to what my friend was doing. I don't visit this site normally so I can't vouch for the accuracy of the info but it seems plausible. http://outside.away.com/outside/body..._training.html He also did some relatively exotic exercises with really big rubber bands and a sled for explosiveness training as well, as well as some dinosaur-style exercises like pushing cars around a parking lot. He was a olympic pole vaulter.

 

[nioh]

Originally Posted by whacked

Update: I tried this today, 3x10 reps of about 20-35% 1RM. A few questions:
- How do I keep the weights stable? I back squat then jump; every few sets the olympic bar would bounce off the back part of my shoulder and drop to a slightly lower position. This hurted a wee bit.
- How high should I jump? Didn't go all out myself due to the above problem.
- Is there any special landing technique to reduce injury risk?

I would suggest you try to keep the bar on a higher than your regular squat position. and push it down while you're jumping. Also, definitely don't use the padding it will only make it worse.

 

[nioh]

This example is pretty good:

 

[kever]

Yea, I don't use a pad ever. Try to go with 20% of your max squat, go down in a controlled speed, once you get to about as low as the guy in the video, jump as high and fast as you can. When you're in the air the bar wants to leave your back, but keep a good grip on it and hold it tightly against your back so it doesn't move. Land as softly as possible cushioning the weight by reversing the motion (land on your toes first and finishing in a proper squat position). Keep the weight light until you're comfortable. Since you're moving it at your maximum speed, even if it's only the bar it will help you build explosiveness. Anybody want to add anything to my description?

 

[whacked]

Originally Posted by drizzt3117

You're using a padded bar, right?
I used an unpadded one, hence a red mark now on my back neck. Guess that is the way to go though.

Thanks y'all for the tips!

 

[mizanation]

i do deadlift, used to do cleans and sometimes do push press.

i wouldn't do weighted jump squats. there's no reason to do them. there are too many variables that could cause injury to the spine. also, when do you ever have to jump while holding something heavy on your back? if you do them, why not use a smith machine? twisting of the torso while holding a heavy load is what causes a lot injuries. a smith machine would solve this problem.

unweighted plyometrics (real plyometrics taught by a good strenght and conditioning coach) should be sufficient to build explosiveness. unweighted sports-specific plyo is good enough for the top athletes in the world, so it should be good for anyone who is just trying to add another inch to their vertical.

anyone else agree with me on this?

 

[drizzt3117]

All I know regarding jump squats was that it was used by all of the Soviet Bloc countries when they were dominating track and field prior to the end of the cold war and US track and field teams began adopting a lot of their training regimens as soon as the info became publicly available (i.e. hired ex-soviet bloc trainers as consultants). They also had some other interesting resistance training exercises using rubber bands as I mentioned previously. Clearly much of the Eastern European success in T&F was due to chemical enhancement but they also had innovative and superior training regimens in addition to their "supplementation"

 

[adversity04]

Originally Posted by mizanation

if you do them, why not use a smith machine? twisting of the torso while holding a heavy load is what causes a lot injuries. a smith machine would solve this problem.

A smith machine removes the midline stabilization that is required while performing squats thus perpetuating the problem of hurt backs while carrying heavy loads. From a functional standpoint when was the last time you put something heavy on your back and could only go up and down along rails.
Think about putting a girl or child on your shoulders. The midline is also important for deadlifts.

 

[mizanation]

Originally Posted by drizzt3117

All I know regarding jump squats was that it was used by all of the Soviet Bloc countries when they were dominating track and field prior to the end of the cold war and US track and field teams began adopting a lot of their training regimens as soon as the info became publicly available (i.e. hired ex-soviet bloc trainers as consultants). They also had some other interesting resistance training exercises using rubber bands as I mentioned previously. Clearly much of the Eastern European success in T&F was due to chemical enhancement but they also had innovative and superior training regimens in addition to their "supplementation"

soviets also did plyometrics.

there is no question that jump squats work. i'm not saying that they don't. i'm saying that the benefits for people on this board who are mostly not competitive athletes don't outweigh the risks.

the chance of injury is much higher with jump squats vs. plyometrics. even with plyometrics, the soviets had a minimum squat requirement before they even let their athletes train plyos.

plus, they had coaches supervising every movement and routine. some guy who can't even perform regular squats with correct form shouldn't be jumping around with a weighted olympic barbell on his shoulders.

 

[mizanation]

Originally Posted by adversity04

A smith machine removes the midline stabilization that is required while performing squats thus perpetuating the problem of hurt backs while carrying heavy loads. From a functional standpoint when was the last time you put something heavy on your back and could only go up and down along rails.
Think about putting a girl or child on your shoulders. The midline is also important for deadlifts.

sorry, i wasn't talking about squats or deadlifts. we were talking about ballistic movements like the weighted jump squat.

of course, smith machine is not recommended at all for non-ballistic lifts.

 

[drizzt3117]

Originally Posted by mizanation

soviets also did plyometrics. there is no question that jump squats work. i'm not saying that they don't. i'm saying that the benefits for people on this board who are mostly not competitive athletes don't outweigh the risks. the chance of injury is much higher with jump squats vs. plyometrics. even with plyometrics, the soviets had a minimum squat requirement before they even let their athletes train plyos. plus, they had coaches supervising every movement and routine. some guy who can't even perform regular squats with correct form shouldn't be jumping around with a weighted olympic barbell on his shoulders.
Oh, I totally agree. I don't think the average person should be doing them, but whacked is already doing plyos and is a competitive athlete who knows what he's doing so I thought they could potentially be of benefit. I think with low weight, the risk/benefit ratio is worth it for the potentially large improvement in vertical jump/performance.

 

[mizanation]

one more thing...

when you say the soviets dominated track and field, you have to consider the amount of performance enhancers they were taking. it allowed the athletes to radically increase the amount of training stress they could endure. on top of that, the soviets found that jump squats led to lower back injuries and later decided that the risks outweighed the benefits and cut back on their use.

 

[drizzt3117]

Originally Posted by mizanation

one more thing...

when you say the soviets dominated track and field, you have to consider the amount of performance enhancers they were taking. it allowed the athletes to radically increase the amount of training stress they could endure. on top of that, the soviets found that jump squats led to lower back injuries and later decided that the risks outweighed the benefits and cut back on their use.

There are different schools of thought on this. First of all, the long term degenerative effects of some of the steroid cocktails they were using have been documented to some degree.

Furthermore, there were also different schools of thoughts involving the exercise regimens in the different Soviet satellites. My friend trained with the Hungarian national team who still used jump squats after the fall of the Soviet Union, so clearly they weren't abandoned by all of the Eastern European countries.

 

[adversity04]

Originally Posted by mizanation

sorry, i wasn't talking about squats or deadlifts. we were talking about ballistic movements like the weighted jump squat.

Ya, I know. You wouldn't use a smith machine for something like a C&J which is also a ballistic movement and requires midline stabilization. I can see the smith machine getting in the way of your natural movement and since we're considering olympic lifts I'm assuming the person would be have learned proper form somewhere.

Was going to come back and edit to include the other oly lifts to my previous post but you beat me to it

 

[Eason]

Smith machines are only good for pullups.