McGwire fails to make HOF

[Brian278]

Originally Posted by iammatt

I am not sure there has ever been a player much better than Rickey.

Willie Mays wasn't a unanimous selection. I think he qualifies as "much better", if few others do.

 

[milosz]

McGwire was a better player than Sosa. Hall-worthy.

The "first-ballot HOFer" thing is difficult - theoretically, all members elected are the same. Realistically, not so much. At this point, I think it's a quality tradition that only the greatest of the greats get in the first go-round. By that standard, McGwire wasn't first-ballot whatever you might think of his alleged drug use.

 

[Dakota rube]

Originally Posted by thekunk07

why no blyleven? better than sutton and many others already enshrined.
Too many home runs allowed is my guess.

 

[life_interrupts]

Originally Posted by whacked

I believe he will be enshrined eventually along with Bonds and possibly Tejada (McGwire's steroid buddy and all

), Sosa, Palmeiro.. For all we know, no one can deny their HOF bid solely on the alleged abuse of performance-enhancing drug and at the same time support any other great players from that era (Clemens, Bagwell, Frank Thomas..) with a clean conscience.
The only one in that group that is a lock is Bonds, who was the bestr player of his generation prior to his Herculean output of HRs due to 'roids, and maybe Clemens. McGwire was a HR hitter with a middling BP and so-so fielder.

 

[thekunk07]

i dunno, i think these old farts don;t see the magic 300 victories and judge based upon that.

Originally Posted by Dakota rube

Too many home runs allowed is my guess.

 

[Dakota rube]

Originally Posted by life_interrupts

The only one in that group that is a lock is Bonds...
I think you need to change that to past tense, as in was a lock

 

[thekunk07]

the roids debate is marsupialed. the vast majority were using, some with greater effect than others. chad curtis gained 25lbs one off-season through diet and creatine

 

[itsstillmatt]

Originally Posted by Brian278

Willie Mays wasn't a unanimous selection. I think he qualifies as "much better", if few others do.
Growing up in the Bay Area, we used to have this conversation at home all the time. The general conclusion was, and I was the only one too young to have seen Mays, was that Mays was appreciably better than Henderson, but that they were in the same league, with very, very few other players, simply because they could take a game over and win it, in a sport which does not allow for that. Bonds in '93 was like that as well, and that was before 'roids. Again, I don't doubt that Mays was a better player, but with all of the home runs in Henderson's time, it is easy to forget what an amazing force he was on the field.

 

[milosz]

Rickey was great (top 25 great), but Rickey was no Willie.

Mays was probably the best defensive center fielder of his generation, a fantastic baserunner/stealer (not in Henderson's category on the latter end, but he wasn't a leadoff man either) and a slugger who lost countless home runs to Candlestick and Polo.

Rickey was the greatest 'leadoff' (in terms of getting on base, scoring runs, wherever someone hits) man since Ty Cobb, but lacked Willie's power and defensive prowess (Henderson was above-average, though).

Or to put it simply - every skill Rickey had, Willie had. But Willie had skills Rickey didn't.

 

[michaeljkrell]

I agree with you have said except the last statement. No one had Rickey's skill to steal bases. Jayson Stark has a nice article about Rickey. http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/hof09/...son&id=3828326

 

[GQgeek]

Damn... I remember Rickey Henderson and I don't even like baseball. Glad McGwire got the shaft.

 

[milosz]

Tim Raines stole bases at a higher percentage than Henderson - whether he stole fewer as a result of managerial decisions or what, I don't know. But the skill (getting the jump + speed) was there.

Willie had Rickey's speed or close to it, and was a fantastic base-stealer himself when called upon in his youth. But the game was different, and his role was different.

 

[michaeljkrell]

I don't think the Raines argument holds its weight. I mean Rickey stole almost twice as many bases in his career. No doubt, that is a feather in Raines' cap, but to for Rickey to steal that many more bases and only be a few percentage points lower than Raines is even more amazing.

We are starting to get into theoreticals now

 

[FiveFiveFive]

Gotta get this off my chest: Rickey Henderson was picked on 511 of 539 ballots. Who the f**k are these 28 people who thought Rickey Henderson wasn't a first-ballot Hall of Famer? They should have their voting privileges revoked immediately. That's a f**king disgrace.

 

[mps23]

I don't know about this McGwire being better than Sosa. Sosa has a higher BA, more RBIs and HRs than McGwire. Sosa actually stole bases also.

Kunk, I agree with you that Blylevan should be in the Hall. I'm not sure why he isn't in there. It's not like he threw spitters or carried a nail file in his back pocket. Meanwhile, Don Sutter is in the Hall.
The only knock on Blylevan is that he only won 20 games once, & his W-L % is barely over .500. However, he has a good career ERA & strikeout #s.

Blylevan's #s are also better or equal to many of Fergie Jenkins, but Jenkins had much more dominating single season stats.

And it took Jim Rice way too long to get into the HoF. Now, that makes no sense.

Originally Posted by milosz

McGwire was a better player than Sosa. Hall-worthy.