Is this really Norvegese construction?

[darkoak]

Very nice tassel loafers on ebay. I am curious though, if the shoes were made using Norvegese construction. At first glance it looks like Bologna, but what do I know? Any of the shoe experts care to chime in? http://cgi.ebay.com/1380-SUTOR-MANTE...QQcmdZViewItem

 

[Roger]

Sure doesn't look like it. Norvegese has a split welt with prominent stitching through the welt and the upper. I don't see any of that here. It looks more like standard Goodyear welting, but I could be mistaken.

Here's some pics of Enzo Bonafe's version of Norvegese (the chukkas, Art. 3722 show it best):

http://enzobonafe.com/norvegese.html

 

[bengal-stripe]

That's a detail of "˜Norvegese' on a Lattanzi shoe.
See how the upper leather is turned out, then stitched down.

Here a drawing of the construction principle:

The featured Sutor Mantellassi is a traditionally welted shoe.

 

[Roger]

Interesting as always, Bengal-stripe. So Norvegese doesn't have a reverse welt after all (actually no welt whatsoever, it would seem, but rather what? a midsole?). That would be Norwegian-welted, I suppose, that does have the reverse welt. That's a nice picture--the drawing. Can you tell us where you found it? Also, are the other construction categories available from the same source?

 

[Roger]

Thinking more about this, I find that the term "Norvegese" is used somewhat inconsistently. Some writers have equated it with "Norwegian," whereas others have seen it as identical to "Bentivegna." It also seems that the Italian cordwainers may use the term for a different construction method than do others. It is certainly not true that the Lattanzi shoe and the diagram can be seen as the same thing as Norwegian construction, which, in my experience at least, implies a reverse welt that is stitched into the upper. I think that Bengal-stripe's diagram may accurately reflect Italian conceptualizations of Norvegese, but I'm not sure that this weltless construction is universally labeled Norvegese. Bengal-stripe, might you have more information on this? Where the hell are Jcusey and Rider when they're needed?

 

[itsstillmatt]

Norvegese, which simply means Norwegian in Italian, can be done with or without a welt. Different shoemakers do it differently. Bentivegna also comes with various names, but it is distinct from Norwegian, always.

Some things are not so important to define perfectly. This is one of them. Buy shoes you like, and don't rely on people who have likely never spoken to a shoemaker in Italy who does the various constructions. Rider, on the other hand, is a good source of information, and Bengal's diagrams are also good.

 

[Roger]

Originally Posted by iammatt

Some things are not so important to define perfectly. This is one of them.
Well...Iammatt, maybe not to you! But there are others to whom consistent, unambiguous, and accurate descriptions are important.

 

[mimile]

No. This is a Blake construction ! If you look inside you will see the stitches ! this is neither a Norwegian nor a Goodyear. They are cheating !

 

[Roger]

Originally Posted by mimile

No. This is a Blake construction ! If you look inside you will see the stitches ! this is neither a Norwegian nor a Goodyear. They are cheating !
Oh, jeez, mimile, you're right! That interior stitching does look like Blake construction. The thick plotens....

 

[dopey]

Originally Posted by iammatt

Norvegese, which simply means Norwegian in Italian, can be done with or without a welt. Different shoemakers do it differently. Bentivegna also comes with various names, but it is distinct from Norwegian, always. Some things are not so important to define perfectly. This is one of them. Buy shoes you like, and don't rely on people who have likely never spoken to a shoemaker in Italy who does the various constructions. Rider, on the other hand, is a good source of information, and Bengal's diagrams are also good.
This is consistent with my experience. When getting a pair of norwegian construction shoes made, the shoemaker put the question to me - did I want it done with or without a welt. But all things being equal, I would prefer precision in nomenclature, with the welted version having one name an the no-welt version having another.

Originally Posted by Roger

Well...Iammatt, maybe not to you! But there are others to whom consistent, unambiguous, and accurate descriptions are important.

+1, as said above.

 

[itsstillmatt]

Originally Posted by dopey

This is consistent with my experience. When getting a pair of norwegian construction shoes made, the shoemaker put the question to me - did I want it done with or without a welt.

But all things being equal, I would prefer precision in nomenclature, with the welted version having one name an the no-welt version having another.


+1, as said above.

As I told Roger in PM, the difficulty in coming up with precise nomenclature is enormous. You are talking about a country whose shoemaking tradition goes back much further than their use of a common language, so you will get different terms in different cities. Many craftsmen, even today, communicate as much in dialect as they do Italian, and each dialect has different words.

 

[dopey]

Originally Posted by iammatt

As I told Roger in PM, the difficulty in coming up with precise nomenclature is enormous. You are talking about a country whose shoemaking tradition goes back much further than their use of a common language, so you will get different terms in different cities. Many craftsmen, even today, communicate as much in dialect as they do Italian, and each dialect has different words.

Then it is our job to civilize the savages. That is what the internet is for.

 

[voxsartoria]

Originally Posted by iammatt

As I told Roger in PM, the difficulty in coming up with precise nomenclature is enormous. You are talking about a country whose shoemaking tradition goes back much further than their use of a common language, so you will get different terms in different cities. Many craftsmen, even today, communicate as much in dialect as they do Italian, and each dialect has different words.

To me, the classic nomenclature problem with the best Italian shoes is the description of "Goodyear" welting when the shoe is actually hand-welted.

If you're English or American, this means a Goodyear machine. The Italians, though, use the term imprecisely.

- B

 

[itsstillmatt]

Originally Posted by dopey

Then it is our job to civilize the savages. That is what the internet is for.
Once, I used a shoemaker who did not have email. I had to email a friend of his, who would then print out the message and bring it to his shop.

 

[voxsartoria]

Originally Posted by iammatt

Once, I used a shoemaker who did not have email. I had to email a friend of his, who would then print out the message and bring it to his shop.

That is almost a haiku.

- B