Is Law School a Losing Game? Article

[scientific]

of course going to HYS will pay off

Originally Posted by w.mj

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the no. 1 reason for kids going to law school: prestige. That oaf in the article even mentioned it. He said, "it's a prestige thing. All of my friends see me as a person they look up to... the respect and admiration is important."

It's a sad state of affairs when the actual state of affairs doesn't matter to people so much as does perception. For an especially coddled portion of the population, the ephemeral prestige associated with something matters more than the reality, especially during the years immediately following undergraduate completion. Hence, my graduating class had a surfeit of Teachers for America, community paper journalists, would-be lawyers, and other assorted riffraff.

and what are you doing that's so great?

 

[Reevolving]

Since when is teaching and journalism prestigious?

 

[Svenn]

Originally Posted by w.mj

For an especially coddled portion of the population, the ephemeral prestige associated with something matters more than the reality

I don't necessarily agree, I think the law students, med students, etc who are most concerned about prestige are not the coddled ones but those who came from 'rough' backgrounds and are trying to prove something to the world. The upper middle-class kids in my law school class (who weren't doing public interest) just kind of fell into law because 'meh, there was nothing else to do,' not for the pride factor. I didn't realize until after I graduated that some people actually seriously thought being a lawyer was 'prestigious,' I've seen so many dingbats in the field I'm surprised it still garners respect.

 

[Eason]

So, for my brother, who is going into a top 5 law school, is he making a big mistake?

 

[rjakapeanut]

Originally Posted by ConcernedParent

Nobody is saying there are no jobs

. Rather there are a dearth of jobs comparable to the investment you have to put in.

i was saying that alot of people here make it seem that way

 

[crazyquik]

Originally Posted by Eason

So, for my brother, who is going into a top 5 law school, is he making a big mistake?
If you mean he's starting this year or next, and if it's a US News & World Report top 5 overall (and not some other ranking, or some specialty ranking), then no. No bigger mistake than anyone else, really. I presume he's going to Columbia or Chicago; otherwise you would have said he's going to HYS/Top 3. Columbia, not surprisingly, will continue to do well placing kids in New York, as well as other major metros (forgive me for forgetting where you originally hail from, and where your brother calls "home.") Chicago does exceptionally well in Chicago, as well as well above average in landing coveted federal clerkships. I think they are only second to Yale in clerkships. Of course, the law from the inside is generally much different than the law from the outside. It's the same way that a law school is like a castle under siege; everyone on the outside wants to get in and everyone on the inside wants to get out.

 

[djblisk]

I just read through this whole thread and have to say 90% of the post are utter rubbish.

T2 to T4 law school graduates can still be very successful. A majority of my friends are attorneys, including me, that graduating from T1 to T4 law schools. The most successful one is a mass torts/class actions attorney who graduated from Southwestern ( T3 to T4 ) and never worked big law in his life. He knew what he wanted, got his foot in the door at small firms to gain experience, then got his current job at a small/medium firm about 5 years ago. His salary is now 200K and is a partner with partner like bonuses. Another friend is an extremely successful tax an estate attorney making 200K before bonus at a small firm in southern California, she graduated from a T2 school. etc. etc.

Law School is what you make of it. If you want to be a successful attorney, it will more than likely happen.

All this other crap is bullshit.

 

[BC2012]

Originally Posted by djblisk

I just read through this whole thread and have to say 90% of the post are utter rubbish.

T2 to T4 law school graduates can still be very successful. A majority of my friends are attorneys, including me, that graduating from T1 to T4 law schools. The most successful one is a mass torts/class actions attorney who graduated from Southwestern ( T3 to T4 ) and never worked big law in his life. He knew what he wanted, got his foot in the door at small firms to gain experience, then got his current job at a small/medium firm about 5 years ago. His salary is now 200K and is a partner with partner like bonuses. Another friend is an extremely successful tax an estate attorney making 200K before bonus at a small firm in southern California, she graduated from a T2 school. etc. etc.

Law School is what you make of it. If you want to be a successful attorney, it will more than likely happen.

All this other crap is bullshit.

The richest guy I know got his money by running a business that sells gutter guards but he didn't even finish high school. Does that mean you shouldn't finish high school because I know one guy who didn't and makes over $1M a year?

Of course, there will always be people who are outliers and make it in spite of the odds. The odds are the entire point of almost every post in this thread. The majority of new lawyers make equal to or less than the average undergrad-only educated person who has worked for 3 years instead of law school (factor in loans + lost wages and you get a very negative NPV).

Please tell me how any of this is bullshit, please. I have hard facts supporting me. You have anecdotal evidence. Which one holds up in law (since you're apparently a lawyer) and which one is laughed at as not able to support anything?

 

[ConcernedParent]

Originally Posted by BC2012

The richest guy I know got his money by running a business that sells gutter guards but he didn't even finish high school. Does that mean you shouldn't finish high school because I know one guy who didn't and makes over $1M a year?

Of course, there will always be people who are outliers and make it in spite of the odds. The odds are the entire point of almost every post in this thread. The majority of new lawyers make equal to or less than the average undergrad-only educated person who has worked for 3 years instead of law school (factor in loans + lost wages and you get a very negative NPV).

Please tell me how any of this is bullshit, please. I have hard facts supporting me. You have anecdotal evidence. Which one holds up in law (since you're apparently a lawyer) and which one is laughed at as not able to support anything?

You forget what makes being a lawyer attractive for most people. We are all ******* English majors and ****. There is literally NO room for upward advancement.

Lets assume, A and B. A has a liberal arts degree and works in HR or something; he starts out at maybe 35k? And over time could probably move to make 55k a year; lets average his salary at 45k a year. B on the other hand has a law degree from a decent school and lets assume his lifetime salary is a paltry 70k (which I understand is the average for lawyers?).

Assume both work til they are 70. A works 48 years, B works 45 years. A will make $2,160,000 in lifetime earnings. B will make $3,150,000- subtract $200,000 for 3 years of lawschool/books/living expenses and **** and B still comes out ahead.

 

[Eason]

Originally Posted by crazyquik

If you mean he's starting this year or next, and if it's a US News & World Report top 5 overall (and not some other ranking, or some specialty ranking), then no. No bigger mistake than anyone else, really.

I presume he's going to Columbia or Chicago; otherwise you would have said he's going to HYS/Top 3. Columbia, not surprisingly, will continue to do well placing kids in New York, as well as other major metros (forgive me for forgetting where you originally hail from, and where your brother calls "home.") Chicago does exceptionally well in Chicago, as well as well above average in landing coveted federal clerkships. I think they are only second to Yale in clerkships.

Of course, the law from the inside is generally much different than the law from the outside. It's the same way that a law school is like a castle under siege; everyone on the outside wants to get in and everyone on the inside wants to get out.

Thanks for the insight.

 

[Connemara]

I think my Princeton Law degree has been the best investment i've ever made.

 

[BC2012]

Originally Posted by ConcernedParent

You forget what makes being a lawyer attractive for most people. We are all ******* English majors and ****. There is literally NO room for upward advancement.

Lets assume, A and B. A has a liberal arts degree and works in HR or something; he starts out at maybe 35k? And over time could probably move to make 55k a year; lets average his salary at 45k a year. B on the other hand has a law degree from a decent school and lets assume his lifetime salary is a paltry 70k (which I understand is the average for lawyers?).

Assume both work til they are 70. A works 48 years, B works 45 years. A will make $2,160,000 in lifetime earnings. B will make $3,150,000- subtract $200,000 for 3 years of lawschool/books/living expenses and **** and B still comes out ahead.

I agree that for the unemployable (liberal arts majors and whatnot) law could very well be a good move, even if you make $60k or less, as it will likely be more than you'd make 3 years out. And the average law salary is almost certainly more than the average BA in English salary.

Boalt Law lists political science, history, English, economics, international relations, philosophy, and sociology as its top feeder majors. The only one there that is likely to make more than $40k to start is economics, I guess, so for the rest, yeah, law might be a step up, even at a huge cost.

It's being able to pay those loans back on $50k/year that becomes an issue, no? Most schools don't have LRAP to help out.

 

[w.mj]

Originally Posted by ConcernedParent

Assume both work til they are 70. A works 48 years, B works 45 years. A will make $2,160,000 in lifetime earnings. B will make $3,150,000- subtract $200,000 for 3 years of lawschool/books/living expenses and **** and B still comes out ahead.

You're not doing the net present value of 200k saved over a lifetime. Let's say you return 6% in real terms and retire at age 63. That's 200,000*1.06^40. $2.1m.

That's not even taking into account the non-dischargeable debt that most go into for law school.

 

[BC2012]

Originally Posted by Connemara

I think my Princeton Law degree has been the best investment i've ever made.

Not as good as my Princeton MBA.

 

[rnoldh]

Originally Posted by Connemara

I think my Princeton Law degree has been the best investment i've ever made.

You really should work up a resume featuring the Princeton JD. And weren't you the editor of the Princeton Law Review, as well as in the top 3 of your class?

No promises, but I think I have some leads for community organizer jobs for you down here in Texas. Lightning can strike twice!

Connemara Hussein Kennedy. You would be a sure winner.