Is bespoke worth it, judging by the examples posted on SF?

[furo]

judging by pics on SF alone, there have been more wrongs than rights w/ bespoke

 

[LA Guy]

Originally Posted by Despos

Couldn't let this pass.
Custom/bespoke clothing is about choices of cloth and styling but there is so much more to it than meets the eye. People hark on and on about having an individual pattern made but what makes it worthwhile is the customization of "fit". Regardless of how much you are "up to date on proper fit", you have to conform to a RTW garment, it cannot conform to you.

Custom tailoring comes down to accessing a mans shape, his irregularities, his personality and making something that is not only functional but aesthetically pleasing to the eye. There is so much manipulation of the pattern and cloth done in the fitting process and these efforts are unique to each individual client. There is no single approach to making a suit as there are too many factors to consider. At the minimum most all men will have one shoulder lower than the other or one hip higher than the other. Prominent shoulder blades, full chests, round backs, forward pitched shoulders, boney shoulders, sloping shoulders, square shoulders, big bellies, stooped or erect postures, etc. etc.. The possibilities and combinations go on and on. It takes years of experience to understand what to do, where to do it and how much to do, to compensate for a man's asymmetrical physique. It takes more years to know how to sew a garment that is visually appealing and yet has a kinetic nature.

The end result to the client is personal satisfaction in an intangible sort of way. If you pay attention to the evaluations of some of Voxsartoria's clothes you will see some like the styling of his clothes and some do not. His response is neutral to the opinions but he highlights what is essential of his clothes. "They feel and move like no other clothes because of the way they are cut and made and thus fit". This is the ultimate compliment to the maker. This is always my goal in making a garment; to make a garment that feels so good when you wear it that it makes you reach for it and want to wear it often.
I would pay more attention to the testimonies of satisfied bespoke clients and not give so much weight to visual renderings online that don't represent or translate the true essence of a hand made garment.
Voxx, hope you are OK being used as an example, I know you are a bit timid.

Thanks for your post, Despos. I highlighted the part that I wanted to expand on. I think that the bolded part is absolutely correct, and this highlights the differences between designer RTW clothing and bespoke. Hedi Slimane famously said, when asked about the severe cuts and stiff construction of his Dior Homme jackets, that he wanted to impose structure on men, that his clothes were supposed to give men a military bearing, and Miuccia Prada said that she envisioned producing clothing for a "very chic army". When you buy designer clothing, you are buying an idea, gaining knowledge. You are presented with and acquire something new, and in time, you make if your own.

There have been certain cases when I've really liked a specific designer piece, but wanted some (usually hidden) details that no one else would probably think of nor need, or in a material that the designer did not choose, but which better suited my needs, when I've gone to a custom maker. However, for the most part, I prefer RTW, because I enjoy finding unexpected things, rather than needing to rely on my own, limited imagination and the craftsmanship of a tailor, which I've found, typically leads to a beautiful, but not exciting, garment. I understand and respect that not everyone is looking for something exciting.

For the record, I voted "worth it", because the results seem to give the users a great deal of satisfaction. I also don't put much stock in online pictures.

 

[Sir James]

Originally Posted by SartorialGhostOfVTR

Is bespoke worth it? Hmmm. If you're very demanding and have very specific expectations of pattern, fabric, cut, style etc or if you're a very unusual size, then bespoke is a great option. People who go over details of clothing with a fine tooth comb may need the type of hands-on experience offered by bespoke.

To answer your question, I don't think that it's worth it for the majorty of people. Let's ignore the complaints about fit because SF members are almost always going to find something that they would change if it were them in the suit (unless the person being judged is one of the forum "untouchables"). The reason for why I don't think that it's worth it is because, for most men, bespoke really doesn't provide anything beyond the convenience of having everything done in one place and the right to brag about having custom made clothing. If you're up to date on proper fit and you have a clear picture of the cut and style that you want, you can find suits of comparable quality for a fraction of the price. With a good tailor and proper direction, your suit will look just as good and wear just as well as one that cost 3-5 times as much.

You are so right!!! True indeed.

 

[tazmaniac]

It's true that many people can find something acceptable in RTW, however, I think certain specifics are hard to find, e.g. trousers with a proper higher rise and side adjusters, certain cloth etc. Such things alone would make bespoke worthwile to me, let alone fit.

 

[Despos]

Originally Posted by SartorialGhostOfVTR

Is bespoke worth it? Hmmm. If you're very demanding and have very specific expectations of pattern, fabric, cut, style etc or if you're a very unusual size, then bespoke is a great option. People who go over details of clothing with a fine tooth comb may need the type of hands-on experience offered by bespoke.

To answer your question, I don't think that it's worth it for the majorty of people. Let's ignore the complaints about fit because SF members are almost always going to find something that they would change if it were them in the suit (unless the person being judged is one of the forum "untouchables"). The reason for why I don't think that it's worth it is because, for most men, bespoke really doesn't provide anything beyond the convenience of having everything done in one place and the right to brag about having custom made clothing. If you're up to date on proper fit and you have a clear picture of the cut and style that you want, you can find suits of comparable quality for a fraction of the price. With a good tailor and proper direction, your suit will look just as good and wear just as well as one that cost 3-5 times as much.

You would be surprised of the actual demographic of the first highlighted area. Probably less than 3% of my clientele knows of Styleforum or has any interest to know about Styleforum. Of the 97%, maybe 2% have any interest of the details of how a garment is made or of styling genres. None of your criteria would fit the 95%. I have many clients who don't even want to go so far as to select cloth. They order by phone and want me to select cloth and style. Not very typical of the experiences you read here.

The second part appears opposite of my experience. Tailored clothing construction that most resembles the custom/bespoke level are priced much higher. Explore Kiton, Brioni or Attolini pricing. Their prices are significantly higher and they have the advantage of scale that small tailors do not. Majority of mass produced clothing cannot compare to custom/bespoke techniques.
If you read these pages you will find as many or more posts of alterations gone wrong. Something like narrowing shoulders have more bad experiences than good. You claim that an altered RTW would have the same result as custom made is so untrue. A RTW garment is finite and alterations have limits. Most any tailor would have a difficult time altering a RTW garment for posture adjustments or to change shoulder slope.
I think your perception of custom/bespoke clothing is not based on true facts.

 

[sellahi22]

If you're very demanding and have very specific expectations of pattern, fabric, cut, style etc or if you're a very unusual size, then bespoke is a great option. People who go over details of clothing with a fine tooth comb may need the type of hands-on experience offered by bespoke.

Originally Posted by Despos

You would be surprised of the actual demographic of the first highlighted area. Probably less than 3% of my clientele knows of Styleforum or has any interest to know about Styleforum. Of the 97%, maybe 2% have any interest of the details of how a garment is made or of styling genres. None of your criteria would fit the 95%. I have many clients who don't even want to go so far as to select cloth. They order by phone and want me to select cloth and style. Not very typical of the experiences you read here.
I don't doubt that this is what your clients (or most people generally) are like, but this is interesting to me. I'm extremely conscious of cloth, and the cloth choice is probably the top reason why I would go bespoke, for both suits and shirts. I want to select from a variety of light/mid/dark greys, weaves like herringbone/twill/sharkskin/flannel, various stripes and plaids, seasonal weights, etc. I fit fine into RTW but I hate that I'm stuck with whatever LCD the designers are catering to this season. When it comes to good style, this is my personal ranking of priorities: 1. basic fit (correct shoulders, arms, jacket length, waist suppression, padded or soft shoulders/canvas according to preference, basic details like side vents) 2. cloth 3. accessories (shirt/tie/shoes) 4. physique 5. grooming (hair, skin) 6. advanced fit (minor problems with sleeve pitch, balance, striped being straight or A-like, chest swelling, etc - of course major problems here would be part of "basic fit")

 

[Despos]

I don't doubt that this is what your clients (or most people generally) are like, but this is interesting to me. I'm extremely conscious of cloth, and the cloth choice is probably the top reason why I would go bespoke, for both suits and shirts. I want to select from a variety of light/mid/dark greys, weaves like herringbone/twill/sharkskin/flannel, various stripes and plaids, seasonal weights, etc. I fit fine into RTW but I hate that I'm stuck with whatever LCD the designers are catering to this season.

The first time I get a client it is for their own personal reason, cloth style, whatever it may be. It is interesting to see what happens after the first suit, the reasoning changes as their experience is actualized. More and more clients will say, "I had no concept of what custom clothing was really about." You can't explain it.

 

[TheTukker]

Originally Posted by sellahi22

When it comes to good style, this is my personal ranking of priorities:

1. basic fit (correct shoulders, arms, jacket length, waist suppression, padded or soft shoulders/canvas according to preference, basic details like side vents)
2. cloth
3. accessories (shirt/tie/shoes)
4. physique
5. grooming (hair, skin)
6. advanced fit (minor problems with sleeve pitch, balance, striped being straight or A-like, chest swelling, etc - of course major problems here would be part of "basic fit")

What do you mean with "physique"? And why does it only come in at #4?

 

[sellahi22]

Originally Posted by Lonneker

What do you mean with "physique"? And why does it only come in at #4?

it was tongue in cheek, but i meant that if you're not very fit, your style would benefit more from becoming fit than worrying about a slight shoulder pitch issue. obviously if you're fat or skinnny, remedying that would be the #1 priority.

 

[cold war painter]

Originally Posted by Fuuma

Is bespoke worth it, judging by the examples posted on SF?

I think that question will probably tell you more about pictures posted on SF than it will about bespoke tailoring (which may even be the intent of it perhaps).

 

[TheTukker]

Originally Posted by sellahi22

it was tongue in cheek, but i meant that if you're not very fit, your style would benefit more from becoming fit than worrying about a slight shoulder pitch issue. obviously if you're fat or skinnny, remedying that would be the #1 priority.

Understood.

 

[voxsartoria]

Originally Posted by George

The fact that your tailor was trained by Sexton, then went to A&S fascinates me. I don't see any Sexton in your man's work. What do you think?

I think there's a bit of Sexton in my stuff...but not a lot.

Originally Posted by Despos

The end result to the client is personal satisfaction in an intangible sort of way. If you pay attention to the evaluations of some of Voxsartoria's clothes you will see some like the styling of his clothes and some do not. His response is neutral to the opinions but he highlights what is essential of his clothes. "They feel and move like no other clothes because of the way they are cut and made and thus fit". This is the ultimate compliment to the maker. This is always my goal in making a garment; to make a garment that feels so good when you wear it that it makes you reach for it and want to wear it often.

I would pay more attention to the testimonies of satisfied bespoke clients and not give so much weight to visual renderings online that don't represent or translate the true essence of a hand made garment.

Voxx, hope you are OK being used as an example, I know you are a bit timid.

Thank you for your kind words and for understanding my shyness.

Originally Posted by Despos

You would be surprised of the actual demographic of the first highlighted area. Probably less than 3% of my clientele knows of Styleforum or has any interest to know about Styleforum. Of the 97%, maybe 2% have any interest of the details of how a garment is made or of styling genres. None of your criteria would fit the 95%. I have many clients who don't even want to go so far as to select cloth. They order by phone and want me to select cloth and style. Not very typical of the experiences you read here.

The second part appears opposite of my experience. Tailored clothing construction that most resembles the custom/bespoke level are priced much higher. Explore Kiton, Brioni or Attolini pricing. Their prices are significantly higher and they have the advantage of scale that small tailors do not. Majority of mass produced clothing cannot compare to custom/bespoke techniques.
If you read these pages you will find as many or more posts of alterations gone wrong. Something like narrowing shoulders have more bad experiences than good. You claim that an altered RTW would have the same result as custom made is so untrue. A RTW garment is finite and alterations have limits. Most any tailor would have a difficult time altering a RTW garment for posture adjustments or to change shoulder slope.

I think your perception of custom/bespoke clothing is not based on true facts.

I am grateful that you remind us that there really is a difference, one that goes far beyond comparing photographs.

The best way to satisfy any curiosity about it is to try it yourself, if it is within your means.


- B

 

[ohm]

Originally Posted by Despos

The first time I get a client it is for their own personal reason, cloth style, whatever it may be. It is interesting to see what happens after the first suit, the reasoning changes as their experience is actualized. More and more clients will say, "I had no concept of what custom clothing was really about." You can't explain it.

What do you recommend a customer get on their first visit? I've seen suggestions range from a basic solid navy/grey suit to just a jacket.

 

[Despos]

Originally Posted by ohm

What do you recommend a customer get on their first visit? I've seen suggestions range from a basic solid navy/grey suit to just a jacket.
Get the suit you always wanted. The cloth/look that turns you on every time you see it. The advantage of a simple cloth is you get to see the lines of the cut without distraction or distortion of pattern. I suggest getting trousers. Many clients comment about the fit of the trousers compared to RTW. They didn't expect there to be as big a difference as they experienced.

 

[RSS]

Originally Posted by Despos

You would be surprised of the actual demographic of the first highlighted area. Probably less than 3% of my clientele knows of Styleforum or has any interest to know about Styleforum. Of the 97%, maybe 2% have any interest of the details of how a garment is made or of styling genres. None of your criteria would fit the 95%. I have many clients who don't even want to go so far as to select cloth. They order by phone and want me to select cloth and style. Not very typical of the experiences you read here.
Having gone the bespoke route since the 1970s ... the "average" bespoke customer's lack of interest in clothing and/or its detail doesn't really surprise me. That said, the extreme one-sidedness of the ratio is surprising. I'd have thought the split more on the order of 80/20 to 90/10 ... rather than 95/5. Of course, I take your word ... you are in a position to really know.

What I require of my bespoke clothing probably doesn't "keep-up" with the requirements of some of the more prolific and better known SF posters who have chosen the way of bespoke. Personally were I to have a more fine-tuned sense of bespoke requirements ... it just wouldn't be the good experience it has been. The quest of perfection I have witnessed in some here on SF would be far too all-consuming for me were I to share a similar compassion in that journey.