Handsewn lapels: Oxxford, Rubinacci, and Steed

[TheFoo]

Originally Posted by Zegnamtl

Perhaps you have missed the point:

"too perfect"
"Machine Padded"

The bulk of this thread is about the guts of how the lapel is made, not the superficial or cosmetic details like pick stitching, whether real or fake.

I do not like very visible pick stitching or accent thread, but that is a detail one can have altered when ordering a jacket. How the house sews the lapel is generally not open to discussion.

The main surface area of the lapels we've seen are difficult to distinguish; the ones with noticeable dimpling are really the exception to the rule. The edge stitching, on the other hand, has differed greatly between samples. Some of the handsewing has been more visible than others, with more or less puckering. At least, these have been my observations since I started the thread.

If I recall correctly, the Hickey Freeman lapel you posted is the first we've seen in this thread with a machine-sewn edge. Somehow I doubt it's an option to have HF handsew the edge of your lapel, and then specify how fine you'd like the stitching. That's why I pointed out the edge-stitching in your photo: it indicates a less costly method of manufacture, not a preference regarding pick-stitching.

 

[Mark Seitelman]

I caught Mike Cohen of Oxxford.

The lapels with smooth undersides are machine sewn. Such include Hickey Freeman and Martin Greenfield (for Flusser). The machine sewing of the lapel canvas barely catches the underside cloth. I can attest to this on my Greenfields and other makes. No stitching. The coats that I possess with the visible stitching include Oxxford and Davies & Son.

Noticeable hand stitching depends upon a number of factors including the cloth and tailor's hand. A smooth, hard finish loth will show the stitching. Also light cloths tend to show the stitching. Flannels, cashmeres, and tweeds do not. The visibility of the stitching indicates tight stitching which helps provide a roll to the label. Certain areas of the lapel get more tensin than the other. One tailor might provide more tension than the next, and his stitching will be more pronounced than the tailor working next to him. Therefore, there will be variation from in any given shop and even from the same tailor.

Many customers like the visible hand stitching.

 

[voxsartoria]

Originally Posted by Mark Seitelman

A smooth, hard finish loth will show the stitching.

Hmmm.

Well, I do not think this corresponds to what I own.

My bespoke coats from Steed are all hand padded. One can see from my gray sharkskin that M. presents on his blog that despite the fineness of the cloth, the stressing (or if one prefers, dimpling) of the lapel from the handpadding is barely visible, if at all. M. has the clickthrough to a very high resolution photograph of this. Moreover, the workmanship on the reverse of the DeBoise buttonhole is, well, fantastic. In fact, I am going to say that the never-visible underside of that DeBoise lapel buttonhole is as neat as the visible buttonholes on a Kiton, and Kiton buttonholes are rather well done.

I think the Rubinacci from the other M. also demonstrates a precision in hand sewing that is a level beyond what one is going to get from within North American shores.

I like and wear Oxxford (also the RTW Italian brands) happily, but really, none of these RTW-oriented brands are the standard bearers for the best in hand sewing. I wish, for the sake of my wallet, otherwise, but so it is. This does not mean that Oxxford, Kiton, Borrelli, Santandrea, etc. are not fine garments...they group at the apex of what men wear today...but they are not at the pinnacle of craftsmanship.

I think there are four primary variables to tailored clothing:

1. Quality of fabric and trimmings. It can be true that a large luxury RTW maker can achieve economies that make luxury fabrics available at a more accessible price...this seldom carries through, however, to the trimmings.

2. Artfulness of construction. This can be represented by continuity of traditon for hand sewing or by modern innovations in machine sewing. The former requires no elaboration, but I think particularly of the way that Borrelli has made decisions about the latter approach, which I find most thoughtful.

3. Mastery of techniques to make clothing individualized. I think hand sewing has an advantage here, but technology should be able to catch up IF it were not the fact that we all live in the age of decline in tailored clothing.

4. Style. You got it, or you don't.

Much bespoke that is attempted falls short in one, two, three, or quite often, all four areas, in contrast to the top RTW-oriented brands which make their brands by optimizing one or two of the characteristics above.

But, there is still bespoke to be had that do all four things well.


- B

 

[thomaus247]

Originally Posted by Zegnamtl

Please forgive the late reply Mr. Maus,

I thought I had killed the thread

Originally Posted by Zegnamtl

the lapel on this HF is close to perfect, too perfect actually, to the point I wonder if it is machine padded.

I speculated that it was, of course, not 100% handsewn. I did not have a lot of time to examine it. There are many areas that appear to be handsewn. The collar appears, to me, to be handsewn. The lapel edge, because of uniformity, and the lapel "padding" look not to be handsewn. I agree with what Mike Cohen said, relayed via Mark Seitelman.

It is what it is, in the end it is a very nice Hickey Freeman suit. I don't currently carry the HF handsewn line, I just put the picture up to promote discussion and so that we all could learn a little more.

Tom

 

[Zegnamtl]

Originally Posted by thomaus247

.......There are many areas that appear to be handsewn.......... The collar appears, to me, to be handsewn. The lapel edge, because of uniformity, and the lapel "padding" look not to be handsewn......... .........I just put the picture up to promote discussion and so that we all could learn a little more. Tom
Tom, It is a great picture for this thread, thank you for posting it. When we look at some of the jackets pictured, the fold is creased much more on the hand sewn jackets than on the machine, on Manton's Shattuck, it looks as if we still see the traces of the chalk marks, his jacket from "Mark's Warehouse" (

) has a rather sloppy crease, but the machine made lapels, while almost flawless, most often lack the character in the actual roll of the hand sewn lapels. Not that any one is a monstrous issue, or as voxsartoria started, should remove any of the pleasure of owning and wearing any of these garments, but I intrigued by the styles and variations. Some of the work is very clean. But calling the line "hand sewn" is pushing it and is at the center of why so many are disenchanted with high end firms and the sales staff at many shops. I would think HF is using a Strobel machine, the world leaders in high end machines such as those needed to pad lapels. Not cheap, 75k a pair, you need a right side and a left side machine. But if you want the clean results shown in your picture of the HF and to hold a decent roll, you have to go to the highest of their machines to get that time in and time out. This machine sews the entire lapel once the elements are lined up and clamped into place. Small tailors, and I believe some high end makers, use a smaller version of this, but it stitches one row at a time and requires the operator to move the fabric by hand along the row and from row to row, such as the one at bottom (there are many variations depending on the task it is designed to do), a pic from the Chinese makers web site.

 

[Tomasso]

Originally Posted by thomaus247

It is what it is, in the end it is a very nice Hickey Freeman suit.
Yes Tom, but it wasn't made in Italy!

 

[thomaus247]

Originally Posted by Tomasso

Yes Tom, but it wasn't made in Italy!

Exactly, which is why I do not have one on order

 

[thomaus247]

Originally Posted by Zegnamtl

But calling the line "hand sewn" is pushing it and is at the center of why so many are disenchanted with high end firms and the sales staff at many shops.


I must leave that debate/discussion up to you guys. I am a HF retailer, and my name is even attached to these posts (which often makes me nervous). I enjoy the discussion and most often agree with all of you.

Further, the discussion is most possibly the most informative available...stroble machine!

I did ask the rep how a factory built for and specializing in machine made garments can suddeny switch to, a percentage of, "handmade" suits.

Tom

 

[Zegnamtl]

I had three e mails asking abut the stitch variations, so I have dragged up a few old pictures from past factory visit posts in hopes they help a little.


A lapel sewn with a blind stitching that is manually operated, sewing one line at a time, but set to sew tight stitches.




A lapel sewn with a manually operated blind stitching machine set to sew loose soft stitches.





Hand sewn stitches:





Fusing is a necessity to keep the entire automated, or "engineered garment" on track, by gluing the elements in place, which takes seconds, the lapel is then sewn together in no time at all all in one stage.





I can not seem to quickly find a tigh picture of the stitch pattern on the automated machines, if I do find one, I will add it later.

A Made in China sample piece,
note the horrible stitching on the collar:





Pre sewn, machine made chest canvass pieces:




A Pick stitching machine.
The space and density of the stitch can be adjusted as can the choice of the accent color thread.





Tom, you mentioned the HF had a hand sewn collar, Samuelsohn hand sews all their collars,Jack Victor was m machine sewn, so I would hope HF would hand sew, and certainly on the "hand sewn" line. The day I visited the Sammy factory, there were two people just doing collars, one basting, one sewing, they seem to take turns at each task.

 

[itsstillmatt]

Allen- This is a cool picture. From which factory does it come?

 

[Chow Chow]

Is the Flusser product still put together by Martin Greenfield? Did Greenfield make the entire suit, or did people in the Flusser shop do the cutting? As I recall, Flusser's original head of production was Raphael, who I worked with when I first ordered Flusser suits in 1989.

Lately I have done basted try-ons that suggest to me a lot more of the work is kept in-house.

 

[Manton]

Since moving to 48th Street, Flusser has moved all the cutting and a great deal (perhaps most?) of the making to a workroom on the third floor of his building. I don't know the exact ratio of outsourcing to inhouse. But this model is closer to his original practice in the late 80s and early 90s, before he moved into Saks. After the move to Saks, everything but the finishing was done outside.

 

[Eustace Tilley]

Originally Posted by Chow Chow

Is the Flusser product still put together by Martin Greenfield? Did Greenfield make the entire suit, or did people in the Flusser shop do the cutting? As I recall, Flusser's original head of production was Raphael, who I worked with when I first ordered Flusser suits in 1989.

Lately I have done basted try-ons that suggest to me a lot more of the work is kept in-house.

I don't believe Raphael ever cut for the Flusser store. He was more than qualified to do so, but acted as the person in charge of all tailoring. Flusser used to still outsource the bespoke work in those days.