Good Natured Advice Thread (improving a business wardrobe)

[TweedyProf]

Quote: LOL noodles.

 

[aglose]

^ I am leaving my office to go back to school in a week and will have to do this to all my co-workers phones.

 

[mimo]

Quote: Funny thing is, he wrote in to say he's not on vacation, he's at your house!

 

[The Noodles]

Funny thing is, he wrote in to say he's not on vacation, he's at your house!

 

[jssdc]

There are probably few fields where books matter, mostly in the humanities, say English or History. Not in the natural sciences or social sciences.

I've lost track of who are academics besides you two, unbelraggazo and Academic2. I'm not surprised that there are so few here on Style Forum. Academics, if they dress carefully at all, seem to be OCBD, possibly a sportscoat, and chinos (that would be dressy). Very few ties; almost no pocket squares. And very badly fitting clothes. OCBD and jeans is more common.

I started dressing more carefully in part to introduce formality into my relation to students who, in the US, seem to be assuming much more familiarity with me as a working assumption. Too many "hey dude" emails! Still, I do standout on campus, if only for well-tailored clothes and a square. At this point, I'm taking it as a mission to get my colleagues to take things a bit more seriously: one occupies a certain position that I think in the end is better served by more formality in dress.

Funny - I was thinking the opposite. Between the three conversing, the two you named, and Claghorn, that's at least six regular posters from academia which is more than I would have expected.

FWIW I agree with the comments on comportment and formality benefiting higher education. In undergrad we were required (as a prevailing social norm) to address both professors and other students formally and I think it tended to elevate the discussion.

 

[Monkeyface]

I don't think there's anything wrong with being social towards your professor. My favourite, and also the best economics professor I've ever had, regularly went to the bar with us for a drink or even shots later at night.

I've had a history professor that would take the class outside during nice weather, and was always up for a drink and some discussion after class. Others have bought drinks or food for the entire class during the last class of the semester. A more informal teacher-student relation can aid the transferral of knowledge, at least in my case.

I suppose it's not really possible in the so called factories, with class sizes ranging from 100-400, but I'm really happy that my small liberal arts college had small classes, ranging from 10-25 students. I can say from personal experience that it's so much better to be at an institution that's focused on teaching instead of research.

Of course I initially addressed my professors as professor, and I continued to address them in that way out of respect. Same for my class mates.

 

[Pingson]

 

Speaking of formalities, despite being in the U.S. for 20 plus years, I still have a hard time calling older (like 20 years older and up) people by their first name. It's probably my Korean background where they are respectful in the way they act, speak, etc if they're older than you. I usually start with Mr. Smith and let them say it is okay to call me by their first names.

I think it is a very reasonable assumption that my student's don't make: formal address, at least initially, is a sign of respect.

I don't care so much being addressed as "Prof" or "Dr" and in the old days (e.g. 3 years ago), I asked them to address me by my first name; but I realized that this ready informality is often a sign of something less than seriousness on their part. I don't serve them well by encouraging it. So, I've become more formal about it as a way of instilling in them that there are divisions and formal relations in life. One does not present well by ignoring them.

Recently a new student asked me what days my classes will be held on (addressing me by my first name in an email). Um...part of life is making the right impression so how did this go for you? [Hint: you can find this information yourself].

I don't think there's anything wrong with being social towards your professor. My favourite, and also the best economics professor I've ever had, regularly went to the bar with us for a drink or even shots later at night.




 I've had a history professor that would take the class outside during nice weather, and was always up for a drink and some discussion after class. Others have bought drinks or food for the entire class during the last class of the semester. A more informal teacher-student relation can aid the transferral of knowledge, at least in my case. 




I suppose it's not really possible in the so called factories, with class sizes ranging from 100-400, but I'm really happy that my small liberal arts college had small classes, ranging from 10-25 students. I can say from personal experience that it's so much better to be at an institution that's focused on teaching instead of research.




Of course I initially addressed my professors as professor, and I continued to address in that way out of respect. Same for my class mates.

This is interesting as here (in Sweden) I am used to students calling me by my first name and any other way always surprise me at first - it is inevitably foreign exchange students that do this. But then again Sweden is a very egalitarian society and there was a big language reform in the late 60s where formal addressing was deemphasised and eventually disappeared altogether. The word "ni" (the Swedish equivalent of the German "Sie") was replaced with "du" (same as in German, meaning you) and at the same time people pretty much also stopped using titles. However, having spent the better part of five years in North America I am fully aware that using "Dr." or "Professor" is expected from students there (and in my experience pretty much all did).

The rare occasions that you hear someone addressed as "Dr. so and so" in Sweden these days is when you go to the hospital, and even then it's a pretty rare thing. It is slightly ironic, however, since most physicians are not true doctors in Sweden - not in the original meaning of the latin word "docere" (meaning "to teach") but also in that most physicians here do not hold doctoral degrees awarded by a university. But anyway, I digress......

 

[heldentenor]

This is interesting as here (in Sweden) I am used to students calling me by my first name and any other way always surprise me at first - it is inevitably foreign exchange students that do this. But then again Sweden is a very egalitarian society and there was a big language reform in the late 60s where formal addressing was deemphasised and eventually disappeared altogether. The word "ni" (the Swedish equivalent of the German "Sie") was replaced with "du" (same as in German, meaning you) and at the same time people pretty much also stopped using titles. However, having spent the better part of five years in North America I am fully aware that using "Dr." or "Professor" is expected from students there (and in my experience pretty much all did).

The rare occasions that you hear someone addressed as "Dr. so and so" in Sweden these days is when you go to the hospital, and even then it's a pretty rare thing. It is slightly ironic, however, since most physicians are not true doctors in Sweden - not in the original meaning of the latin word "docere" (meaning "to teach") but also in that most physicians here do not hold doctoral degrees awarded by a university. But anyway, I digress......

I'm also an academic, and a youthful one at that. Those of you who have seen my fit pics know that I look like I'm about 25 (though I will turn 30 this year). Part of why I dress more traditionally is to offer a visual reminder to my students that I am a professional, not a peer. Doing it with clothes allows me to be more informal and jocular in our interactions, though I do appreciate being called "Professor."

The politics of "Dr." on university campuses in the United States are interesting. At many of our oldest institutions, "Dr." is seen as a kind of gaucherie (don't ask me why). It may have something to do with Professor being the title of a position, and Dr. sounding more like a rank or social distinction, but that's only a guess. I don't mind when students call me "Dr.", but I gravitate towards "Professor" when asked which I prefer.

 

[The Noodles]

Well since Professor Pingson digressed, I would like to share a nice photograph of his students and of him...somewhere in the background.

 

[topos]

Quote:

Indeed. While we (the institution) 'sell' an education, the student believes he is buying a diploma. The differences reflect the value we respectively attribute to each.

There are places where students don't pay tuition at all and some still have this attitude, so I'm not sure you can say high tuition makes students/parents feel more entitled, though I understand where that comes from. I have taught at several institutions with tuition right around that 50k mark too, and I've never once heard a student or parent complain about a grade I gave with a comment along the lines of "I pay $50,000 and I expect better". And I've never had a colleague tell me they heard this either. Whatever sense of "entitlement" of students I have encountered I suspect is more related to prior success ("This is my first C!") than anything else. The worst I have encountered is a complaint that a grade they earned from me will prevent their dreams of going to medical/professional school. Which might be true, in which case I'm glad they won't ever be my physician.

 

[SeaJen]

It would be the very foolish student who was explicit about their belief that they paid for their grade, but I stand behind my assertion that many, if not most, of the entitled student behavior I witness is related to the differences in what we are valuing in our mutual interactions

There are places where students don't pay tuition at all and some still have this attitude, so I'm not sure you can say high tuition makes students/parents feel more entitled, though I understand where that comes from. I have taught at several institutions with tuition right around that 50k mark too, and I've never once heard a student or parent complain about a grade I gave with a comment along the lines of "I pay $50,000 and I expect better". And I've never had a colleague tell me they heard this either. Whatever sense of "entitlement" of students I have encountered I suspect is more related to prior success ("This is my first C!") than anything else. The worst I have encountered is a complaint that a grade they earned from me will prevent their dreams of going to medical/professional school. Which might be true, in which case I'm glad they won't ever be my physician.

 

[Pingson]



Well since Professor Pingson digressed, I would like to share a nice photograph of his students and of him...somewhere in the background.

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!

Yup, looks pretty much right. That's what all women looks like in Sweden. Right @EFV @Anden?

 

[SeaJen]

Clearly not an engineering professor!

Well since Professor Pingson digressed, I would like to share a nice photograph of his students and of him...somewhere in the background.

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!

 

[TweedyProf]

I wouldn't say the inference is given that I pay 50K, I should get an A, but more complicated like given that I pay 50K and I'm not getting an A, this means that something is likely wrong on your end. Then you get a parent calling in etc. That has happened to me, and the parental intervention I found bizarre and inappropriate (there are, of course, parental interventions that can be appropriate, but bad grades at a university is not one of them). I have also heard the medical school line too.

Here's the fundamental issue for me (speaking to a student now): are you ready to be an adult, a grownup, someone who take responsibility?

If you aren't, then you need to learn how to be. Recognizing formality where it exists is part of being grown up. Treating people in a way appropriate to a social context etc. is part of being a grown up. Looking up information, thinking for yourself, etc.

PS: my academic count (faculty) is now up to 7.

 

[EFV]



Yup, looks pretty much right. That's pretty much what all women looks like in Sweden. Right @EFV @Anden?

Actually, they look like the girls next door in the area I'm currently residing.