Down Jackets: Technical vs Designer Performance?

[Rixon]

When I look at winter jackets for urban/non-sport use, it’s easy for me to conclude a technical down jacket from Arcteryx or their sister line Veilance will outperform designer down jackets from brands like Kiton, Cucinelli, etc... yet, I also recognize the price difference may represent legitimate improvements in access to materials and construction. For example, a cashmere shell for down would make for breathability while being wind proofed and waterproofed.

Does anyone have insight on how these designer companies hold up in terms of performance for their price point? Putting brand premiums and value for money arguments aside.

 

[jayvee]

I think you have to look at each jacket on an individual basis and weigh up things like fill weight, outer material etc. I have a Woolrich arctic parka (EU version) and its badass warm and as refined as a jacket of that nature could be. But then I live in northern Sweden so I need something serious. I guess it depends where you will use it.

 

[breakaway01]

For example, a cashmere shell for down would make for breathability while being wind proofed and waterproofed.

No, a cashmere shell is far from windproof or waterproof. Put a cashmere scarf around your head and stand in the shower. From a purely technical/performance standpoint there is a very good reason why manufacturers of outdoor gear do not use cashmere or wool as a shell fabric (though wool makes a good base or mid-layer). It is just too heavy and not sufficiently wind or waterproof.

What about the down quality? I don't see anything from most fashion designers about fill power (the volume/weight ratio of the down, a measure of insulating performance) of their down or whether the down is responsibly sourced.

Construction also matters. Looking at, say, a Cucinelli down jacket, I see a sewn-through construction rather than more complicated baffle (box, etc) construction. This is a less expensive method of construction and results in less even distribution of insulation.

other things -- seam taping, hood construction, water resistant zipper, etc are rarely, if ever, done well by fashion manufacturers.

Bottom line, any winter weather garment from a designer like Cucinelli will be greatly 'outperformed' at a much lower price by coats from technical outerwear manufacturers. But for 'urban/non-sport' use as you describe, it may not really matter.

 

[Rixon]

No, a cashmere shell is far from windproof or waterproof. Put a cashmere scarf around your head and stand in the shower. From a purely technical/performance standpoint there is a very good reason why manufacturers of outdoor gear do not use cashmere or wool as a shell fabric (though wool makes a good base or mid-layer). It is just too heavy and not sufficiently wind or waterproof.

What about the down quality? I don't see anything from most fashion designers about fill power (the volume/weight ratio of the down, a measure of insulating performance) of their down or whether the down is responsibly sourced.

Construction also matters. Looking at, say, a Cucinelli down jacket, I see a sewn-through construction rather than more complicated baffle (box, etc) construction. This is a less expensive method of construction and results in less even distribution of insulation.

other things -- seam taping, hood construction, water resistant zipper, etc are rarely, if ever, done well by fashion manufacturers.

Bottom line, any winter weather garment from a designer like Cucinelli will be greatly 'outperformed' at a much lower price by coats from technical outerwear manufacturers. But for 'urban/non-sport' use as you describe, it may not really matter.

Thanks for breaking it down.

The reason I mentioned a cashmere (or blend) shell is because I've seen Cucinelli mention theirs in vests and jackets to be waterproof and windproof, now that said under testing conditions and extreme cases like a shower I'm sure it would fail far before advanced GoreTex. I always assumed manufacturers dodged the wools because technical can be produced cheaper and tear resistant if you fall. You're right most desigers fails to mention feather source, but that's why I put Kiton and Cucinelli forward.

A lot of Arcteryx midlayers are sown through, but then they are expecting you to utilize a shell. The only time I've seen boxed baffle is on higher pieces like the Firebee (which is the love of my life) and Veilance, like the Conduit AR.

I agree, perhaps it may not matter in the end for urban. I was curious if there's something I don't know about these items. So this post was about tossing some benefit of the doubt and seeing if there's more to it.

 

[cb200]

Most technical brands will tell you what the fill-power used in a garment is. That's a simply a way of determining how much loft (how poofy) a given quality of down will have. More loft for weight is what outdoor brands aim for. Better packing and potential warmth for weight.

Big loft needs big plumes from big birds... so costs more. Interestingly this year with Covid and the weather goose harvesting seems like it's later so birds are bigger and high fill powers are less expensive than the past. On two garments that are the exact same in construction and design a lighter garment is possible to be made by using less down of higher fill power.

Weight and technical performance are usually not concerns of many designer brands. It's possible to use more down of a lesser fill-power to expand the baffles. That's more likely to happen with a fashion-fashion brand and they simply may not tell you what the fill-power is. Look to see if it's duck or goose they might say. Ducks are smaller and fill power will be lower.

One thing that I'd also mention is that with higher fill power you're going to normally have a higher rate of down plumes to feathers and stems. Those feathers and stems are non insulating and are also a threat to poking through the baffle fabrics. Cheaper down will not be sorted and cleaned as well in many cases will have more stems and feathers. Even in higher fill power there's going to be some feathers and stems it's a natural product that needs to be cleaned and sorted.

Almost all down jackets will be constructed with a fabric that will be a tight weave to be down proof. Because of this tight weave you'll won't get much - if any breathability... so the sew through baffle perforation are not that bad of a compromise for lighter weight down or mid-layers. Yes, there will be cold spots but few people need to max out the warmth for weight and while box baffles might be ideal... for most uses sew through construction is pretty darn good.