Discussions about the fashion industry thread

[clee1982]

@Mr. Six

It's amazing to see what happened to Smith Street in Brooklyn. That was the location for our first store, and for a long time it was stridently anti-corporate.

You'd walk up and down this entire block and not see a single chain store. There were a few predictable food options (Starbucks, Dunkin) but everything else was independent. At its heyday (2012), it probably had about 15 womens boutiques and around 3 mens. Quite a few gift stores and speciality stores too.

By the time we closed up in 2016, traffic on the street was a shadow of its former self. On a Saturday in the past, we'd have people lined up to buy stuff at the counter, and we'd see pedestrians up and down the street with shopping bags from the other businesses. By 2016, neither ever happened. Our store did okay because we were the only local resource for biz-caz items, but dress pants and custom suits/shirts were really the only thing that we could sell. It just wasn't sustainable.

I'd like to blame it on the usual boogeymen of rising commercial rents, but truthfully, that wasn't the issue. The neighborhood got more wealthy and the residents simply stopped shopping locally. I went to a condo meeting with 100 people.. all of whom were in the salary range and general style to shop at my store, and not a single person had ever bought anything there. This was for a condo building 5 blocks away. They walked past the store every day on their way to the train. They simply didn't care.

That is the true impact of online shopping and constant availability vs. brick and mortar. Customers just don't care as much to spend time shopping in person. The long-standing model of a stocked store with an employee or two.. waiting for someone to come inside and buy something.. will mostly go away. You've got to offer much more than that for someone to invest their time with you.

Do you think you would have done better had your brand been known to them (not saying pouring into advertisement was the way to do it). or do you think the fact that menswear (the ones that kind got started after financial crisis) the way we know has been over saturated for a few years now (look at JCrew and Polo Ralph Lauren)

 

[NGOStudio]

@Mr. Six

It's amazing to see what happened to Smith Street in Brooklyn. That was the location for our first store, and for a long time it was stridently anti-corporate.

You'd walk up and down this entire block and not see a single chain store. There were a few predictable food options (Starbucks, Dunkin) but everything else was independent. At its heyday (2012), it probably had about 15 womens boutiques and around 3 mens. Quite a few gift stores and speciality stores too.

By the time we closed up in 2016, traffic on the street was a shadow of its former self. On a Saturday in the past, we'd have people lined up to buy stuff at the counter, and we'd see pedestrians up and down the street with shopping bags from the other businesses. By 2016, neither ever happened. Our store did okay because we were the only local resource for biz-caz items, but dress pants and custom suits/shirts were really the only thing that we could sell. It just wasn't sustainable.

I'd like to blame it on the usual boogeymen of rising commercial rents, but truthfully, that wasn't the issue. The neighborhood got more wealthy and the residents simply stopped shopping locally. I went to a condo meeting with 100 people.. all of whom were in the salary range and general style to shop at my store, and not a single person had ever bought anything there. This was for a condo building 5 blocks away. They walked past the store every day on their way to the train. They simply didn't care.

That is the true impact of online shopping and constant availability vs. brick and mortar. Customers just don't care as much to spend time shopping in person. The long-standing model of a stocked store with an employee or two.. waiting for someone to come inside and buy something.. will mostly go away. You've got to offer much more than that for someone to invest their time with you.

While brick and mortar shopping venues are trying the hardest to win back their customers (eg: Bestbuy), the problem is the amount of time that people are spending on their smart devices instead of walking down the street and actually looking for things. The browsing experience has gone mobile and eventually some marketshare will go into virtual space. It's not only the convenience or price point that stop buyers coming into traditional stores but also the hassle to resist every minute of temptation online.

 

[ClambakeSkate]

I used to go to smith st almost every weekend to go to Homage, have a coffee and wander around a bit. And we frequented that tiki bar there where we would trick newbies into ordering zombies which always garnered the same sour-faced response.

I moved out of NYC 6 years ago and the last time I went back (about 2 years ago) I thought it was absolutely BORING in every way. It's sad.

 

[Mr. Six]

@Mr. Six

It's amazing to see what happened to Smith Street in Brooklyn. That was the location for our first store, and for a long time it was stridently anti-corporate.

You'd walk up and down this entire block and not see a single chain store. There were a few predictable food options (Starbucks, Dunkin) but everything else was independent. At its heyday (2012), it probably had about 15 womens boutiques and around 3 mens. Quite a few gift stores and speciality stores too.

By the time we closed up in 2016, traffic on the street was a shadow of its former self. On a Saturday in the past, we'd have people lined up to buy stuff at the counter, and we'd see pedestrians up and down the street with shopping bags from the other businesses. By 2016, neither ever happened. Our store did okay because we were the only local resource for biz-caz items, but dress pants and custom suits/shirts were really the only thing that we could sell. It just wasn't sustainable.

I'd like to blame it on the usual boogeymen of rising commercial rents, but truthfully, that wasn't the issue. The neighborhood got more wealthy and the residents simply stopped shopping locally. I went to a condo meeting with 100 people.. all of whom were in the salary range and general style to shop at my store, and not a single person had ever bought anything there. This was for a condo building 5 blocks away. They walked past the store every day on their way to the train. They simply didn't care.

That is the true impact of online shopping and constant availability vs. brick and mortar. Customers just don't care as much to spend time shopping in person. The long-standing model of a stocked store with an employee or two.. waiting for someone to come inside and buy something.. will mostly go away. You've got to offer much more than that for someone to invest their time with you.

Interesting! I never made it out to the Smith St. shop. Decreased interest in shopping as an experience seems like a significant aspect of this. Which does argue in favor of replacing the boutiques with services that offer experiences that can't be replicated online.

 

[Epaulet]

Do you think you would have done better had your brand been known to them (not saying pouring into advertisement was the way to do it). or do you think the fact that menswear (the ones that kind got started after financial crisis) the way we know has been over saturated for a few years now (look at JCrew and Polo Ralph Lauren)

@clee1982 Part of it was demographics... as the neighborhood got more expensive, the residents got arguably less interesting and more busy. But it's tough to say, the change on Smith street took out all sorts of retailers, and I know that many of the chains there (Lucky Brand, Urban Outfitters, Rag & Bone, Barneys, Lululemon) post really lousy numbers. Intermix and WP Store were both forced to close, and they had a lot of money behind them.

Really, what we saw was a total drop-off in local shopping interest. People simply stopped walking down the street to buy clothing and footwear. They're still going to restaurants, getting coffee, getting nails done, etc, but shopping is something done online in your spare time at home. That zip code (11231) is one of the highest volume in the country for jcrew.com. I know this from a close friend who lives there.

While brick and mortar shopping venues are trying the hardest to win back their customers (eg: Bestbuy), the problem is the amount of time that people are spending on their smart devices instead of walking down the street and actually looking for things. The browsing experience has gone mobile and eventually some marketshare will go into virtual space. It's not only the convenience or price point that stop buyers coming into traditional stores but also the hassle to resist every minute of temptation online.

@NGOStudio totally agreed. Smartphones are super compelling, and the store experience will absolutely pale against what's available there.

I did an amazing smart phone purchase today. I'm doing a trunk show in NYC tomorrow and Saturday... and I just realized that I didn't have a rolling rack. In the past I may have gotten one at Bed Bath & Beyond and humped it over to the hotel. Today I ordered it with next day delivery from Amazon. While I was on the subway. That's 2017 for you.

I used to go to smith st almost every weekend to go to Homage, have a coffee and wander around a bit. And we frequented that tiki bar there where we would trick newbies into ordering zombies which always garnered the same sour-faced response.

I moved out of NYC 6 years ago and the last time I went back (about 2 years ago) I thought it was absolutely BORING in every way. It's sad.

Yup, the soul got totally ripped out of it. Even the food places are struggling. @ClambakeSkate

Interesting! I never made it out to the Smith St. shop. Decreased interest in shopping as an experience seems like a significant aspect of this. Which does argue in favor of replacing the boutiques with services that offer experiences that can't be replicated online.

@Mr. Six absolutely, and that's what I see happening.

It's funny.. our store at the end was doing like 50% of its sales in custom shirts. Which was great, except that the sales number overall was down. I did think that it would probably be a viable B&M business if it ONLY did custom shirts. Fill the windows with them, put up a big sign, and advertise that this is the place to get fitted and create your own shirt design. Offer comfortable seating and refreshments. Great gift cards. You then have a compelling experience and a real reason for people to come in. It's singular and understandable.

 

[NGOStudio]

@clee1982 Part of it was demographics... as the neighborhood got more expensive, the residents got arguably less interesting and more busy. But it's tough to say, the change on Smith street took out all sorts of retailers, and I know that many of the chains there (Lucky Brand, Urban Outfitters, Rag & Bone, Barneys, Lululemon) post really lousy numbers. Intermix and WP Store were both forced to close, and they had a lot of money behind them.

Really, what we saw was a total drop-off in local shopping interest. People simply stopped walking down the street to buy clothing and footwear. They're still going to restaurants, getting coffee, getting nails done, etc, but shopping is something done online in your spare time at home. That zip code (11231) is one of the highest volume in the country for jcrew.com. I know this from a close friend who lives there.



@NGOStudio totally agreed. Smartphones are super compelling, and the store experience will absolutely pale against what's available there.

I did an amazing smart phone purchase today. I'm doing a trunk show in NYC tomorrow and Saturday... and I just realized that I didn't have a rolling rack. In the past I may have gotten one at Bed Bath & Beyond and humped it over to the hotel. Today I ordered it with next day delivery from Amazon. While I was on the subway. That's 2017 for you.



Yup, the soul got totally ripped out of it. Even the food places are struggling. @ClambakeSkate



@Mr. Six absolutely, and that's what I see happening.

It's funny.. our store at the end was doing like 50% of its sales in custom shirts. Which was great, except that the sales number overall was down. I did think that it would probably be a viable B&M business if it ONLY did custom shirts. Fill the windows with them, put up a big sign, and advertise that this is the place to get fitted and create your own shirt design. Offer comfortable seating and refreshments. Great gift cards. You then have a compelling experience and a real reason for people to come in. It's singular and understandable.

The experience about custom shirts is really nice. I guess total B&M is difficult with all the raw costs and ongoing overhead. I used to think buying the cheapest inventory + an efficient operation will give me an edge but now I knew it's a race with no end. In my current view, only somewhat originality in design, high craftsmanship, and direct influence over materials will allow one to survive in the fashion business.

 

[dieworkwear]

Lean Luxe on the "Placeless Aesthetic"

http://leanluxe.com/kyle-chayka-apolis-monocle-and-the-branding-of-the-placeless-aesthetic/

Kind of funny that, we're so used to heavy handed nostalgia, anything generically contemporary becomes a "thing."

Are the clothes here really that differnet from what J. Crew used to sell before they went full Liquor Store, Americana, nostalgia? Like '90s J. Crew with their catalogs? Garment dyed tees, flat front chinos, Bretons for brunching, etc?

 

[LA Guy]

Lean Luxe on the "Placeless Aesthetic"

http://leanluxe.com/kyle-chayka-apolis-monocle-and-the-branding-of-the-placeless-aesthetic/

Kind of funny that, we're so used to heavy handed nostalgia, anything generically contemporary becomes a "thing."

Are the clothes here really that differnet from what J. Crew used to sell before they went full Liquor Store, Americana, nostalgia? Like '90s J. Crew with their catalogs? Garment dyed tees, flat front chinos, Bretons for brunching, etc?

I would say that it's pretty different. A much more streamlined, modern, sensibility. It would be RL Black Label, vs. Polo Ralph Lauren.

On a tangential note, I've known the Apolis guys since day 1, pretty much, and they started in a very different place. Also, if you had told me in 2008 or whenever it was we first met, that their brand, name notwithstanding, they would be associated with "jetsetter", or "anonymous traveler" in any way, I would have been like "nah..."

 

[Epaulet]

The experience about custom shirts is really nice. I guess total B&M is difficult with all the raw costs and ongoing overhead. I used to think buying the cheapest inventory + an efficient operation will give me an edge but now I knew it's a race with no end. In my current view, only somewhat originality in design, high craftsmanship, and direct influence over materials will allow one to survive in the fashion business.

@NGOStudio yup, I'd agree with that.

And I think that surviving in the brick and mortar landscape (at least as an independent smaller biz that's renting the space) will rely upon (1) exclusivity and (2) a compelling in-person experience.

As online gets stronger, faster, and more comprehensive, it's going to be harder to get people out to your store. You've got to offer something that no one else does, and an experience that's richer than just shirts and jackets on a rack. I'm afraid that most multi-brand boutiques that look like small kiosks of the Capsule or Liberty show will be forced to fold in the next new years. It's a huge bummer, as these are often some of the most pleasant spots in a given town and it was an attainable way for people to be self-employed, but it's unavoidable if the customers aren't there.

I would say that it's pretty different. A much more streamlined, modern, sensibility. It would be RL Black Label, vs. Polo Ralph Lauren.

On a tangential note, I've known the Apolis guys since day 1, pretty much, and they started in a very different place. Also, if you had told me in 2008 or whenever it was we first met, that their brand, name notwithstanding, they would be associated with "jetsetter", or "anonymous traveler" in any way, I would have been like "nah..."

Agreed with @LA Guy .. the Apolis dudes definitely had a vision that your average brand didn't. I always admired that they thought bigger and connected their branding with really conscious themes. They're genuinely good designers and very nice people too.

 

[Fuuma]

Lean Luxe on the "Placeless Aesthetic"

http://leanluxe.com/kyle-chayka-apolis-monocle-and-the-branding-of-the-placeless-aesthetic/

Kind of funny that, we're so used to heavy handed nostalgia, anything generically contemporary becomes a "thing."

Are the clothes here really that differnet from what J. Crew used to sell before they went full Liquor Store, Americana, nostalgia? Like '90s J. Crew with their catalogs? Garment dyed tees, flat front chinos, Bretons for brunching, etc?

How do you receive the clothing is you're continually shifting places? Aspirational much.

 

[gdl203]

JackThreads (which was the darling of digital commerce not too long ago), is shutting down. A confirmation that even a formula of online + ample VC funding + targeted marketing + low-cost strategy = not a guarantee of success.
http://www.mr-mag.com/ailing-online-retailer-jackthreads-close-operations/

 

[cb200]

How do you receive the clothing is you're continually shifting places? Aspirational much.

One hour delivery? http://www.glossy.co/evolution-of-luxury/fashions-move-to-immediacy-has-resulted-in-a-shipping-race

There isn't any free shipping (or returns) on the business side of fulfillment. This increase in the expectation in delivery speed will add costs to the smaller brands fulfillment fulfillment Big brands with deep pockets, VC money, or cheap capital will continue to push fulfillment speed as it trains the customer's expectations. It's a competitive advantage that "works" at a scale that smaller brands can't or won't be able to compete with.

 

[Fuuma]

One hour delivery? http://www.glossy.co/evolution-of-luxury/fashions-move-to-immediacy-has-resulted-in-a-shipping-race

There isn't any free shipping (or returns) on the business side of fulfillment. This increase in the expectation in delivery speed will add costs to the smaller brands fulfillment fulfillment Big brands with deep pockets, VC money, or cheap capital will continue to push fulfillment speed as it trains the customer's expectations. It's a competitive advantage that "works" at a scale that smaller brands can't or won't be able to compete with.

I'm just sayin' that when you move around all the time (something I've experienced for long stretches of time) and need to receive things you'd need to be able to alter without problems your shipping address all the time and shipping to be about the same speed (or at least have very precise estimates) anywhere in the world. Anything web-based (paypal, hell gmail, whatever) constantly freaks out when you're not in the country where you registered and is already annoying as it is without adding the need to switch delivery on your monthly hoard of neutralminimalworldtraveller(tm) outfit. In other words this stuff doesn't work for the people it mythologizes. Well maybe they think world travellers spend three months in NYC then three months in London or something but then I mean just go to Uniqlo dude.

 

[dieworkwear]

I'm just sayin' that when you move around all the time (something I've experienced for long stretches of time) and need to receive things you'd need to be able to alter without problems your shipping address all the time and shipping to be about the same speed (or at least have very precise estimates) anywhere in the world. Anything web-based (paypal, hell gmail, whatever) constantly freaks out when you're not in the country where you registered and is already annoying as it is without adding the need to switch delivery on your monthly hoard of neutralminimalworldtraveller(tm) outfit. In other words this stuff doesn't work for the people it mythologizes. Well maybe they think world travellers spend three months in NYC then three months in London or something but then I mean just go to Uniqlo dude.

Not sure I understand what you're saying, but the article is basically about this generic, Monocle aesthetic that they deem as "placeless." I like the stuff, but to me it's just a specific kind of yuppie uniform that has been around since the '90s, just today in a slimmer silhouette. Clean lines, bare basics, and inoffensive clothing that works for casual and work places. The article is about aesthetics, not logistics of delivery.

That look is only placeless because globalization has homogenized everything. Not just for that aesthetic, but even niche fashion cultures, which have spread through IG. Actual "placeless aesthetics" for me would be something like CdG -- designs that don't rely on the usual tropes about gender, class, age, etc. It's relatively more removed from the timeline of fashion history. The other stuff is just part and parcel with globalization (Breton stripes are still "placed;" they're just generic now cause they're yuppie).

 

[Fuuma]

Not sure I understand what you're saying, but the article is basically about this generic, Monocle aesthetic that they deem as "placeless." I like the stuff, but to me it's just a specific kind of yuppie uniform that has been around since the '90s, just today in a slimmer silhouette. Clean lines, bare basics, and inoffensive clothing that works for casual and work places. The article is about aesthetics, not logistics of delivery.

That look is only placeless because globalization has homogenized everything. Not just for that aesthetic, but even niche fashion cultures, which have spread through IG. Actual "placeless aesthetics" for me would be something like CdG -- designs that don't rely on the usual tropes about gender, class, age, etc. It's relatively more removed from the timeline of fashion history. The other stuff is just part and parcel with globalization (Breton stripes are still "placed;" they're just generic now cause they're yuppie).

Sure, not going to argue about this, I was merely quipping on how the client they mythologize wouldn't be satisfied with the concept cause it wouldn't work for him. The real client is just some dude in a big city who is himself a culturally homogenized hype sandwich.