Discussions about the fashion industry thread

[bry2000]

For me, the ability to browse and try on are the two most important things. I hate on-line shopping and find that I end up returning or wishing I could return most things I buy on-line. The notable exceptions are items from brands I am very familiar with. That is, I already knew exactly what I was purchasing, having vetted the item and fit in person.

I also benefit from having developed great relationships with salespeople in the important shops in my city. I find they take great care of me, especially during sales season. There is no way I can duplicate those benefits shopping on-line.

 

[cyc wid it]

Boutiques love it when you just go in to try stuff on then order online. (100000)

 

[dieworkwear]

I would agree with this, but I think that Self Edge is a good model for success, both in B&M and online, and frankly. I don't think that the ways retailers can be successful are at theri core that difference between I think that the key factors to success are:

1) Exclusive product - and I think that collaborations with desirable brands is generally probably a better way to go than trying to build a house brand, where the marketing falls entirely to you. Not to say that you should not be concurrently building a house brand. In any case, exclusive product immediately eliminates any price competition. This does require very good relationship with vendors though, and cooperation with them.

2) Continual new product. If you have one drop at the beginning of a season, why do I have any reason to look at your webstore, until the end of the season, ever? Both small companies (Outlier) and big ones (MrPorter) have picked up on this and have continuous rollouts. It's like Zara, but with the genuine article. Consequently, they are some of the only retailer emails I open regularly. A lot of retailers try to lure me in with interesting interviews, whatever, but let's face it, I go to a retailer for product, first and foremost. Anything else is the equivalent of bringing in a DJ into the store, or having a coffee bar. Yeah, I like coffee, and can usually stand DJs, but they do not compel me to buy anything.

3) Service and convenience - this should be obvious, but it's not. There are a bazlllion places to buy good stuff, both online and off. If your shipping is fast, your returns are easy, and you seem like good people (this can be through live chat, your presence on forums answering my asinine questions, whatever), I might more inclined to buy from you, as long as the above 2 criteria are also fulfilled. It's certainly not enough on it's own, though, as numerous studies have shown customers to be less and less loyal.

Aren't these just the baseline though? I mean, every store tries to have exclusive product (or almost). Everyone wants new things coming in, if they can afford it (although, I assume that runs into the problem of a ticking fashion calendar and end of season sales). And everyone wants to give good service (although it costs money and time to do so, which isn't easy if everyone is shopping at 80% off).

That doesn't seem to be Self Edge's secret to success though. I really think that's more about how they've been able to opt out of the commodity and discount game. If you want Japanese selvedge denim jeans, you're not comparison shopping to Levis. You're looking at, what, maybe five stores in the US who carry those sorts of things? And they're things that have weird shrinking rules, so you often need to try things on. And you can't buy used cause that **** is gross (for 6 month old jeans someone didn't wash, meaning). And you don't have to discount cause stock is non-season specific. And it's the one remaining item that cuts across almost any kind of wardrobe. Everyone needs jeans; Self Edge just sells better versions.

Comparison shopping, discount shopping, faster trends (ie stuff goes out of style quickly), and the rapid commodification (related to faster trends) seem to be what's most dangerous for a modern retail business these days.

 

[Epaulet]

Comparison shopping, discount shopping, faster trends (ie stuff goes out of style quickly), and the rapid commodification (related to faster trends) seem to be what's most dangerous for a modern retail business these days.

Totally agreed. Cost of living and relative full employment is a huge problem as well.

Most successful B&M stores have to be located in a popular metro area. With rents and buying prices through the roof, it's becoming increasingly difficult to employ good staff members for retail jobs.

Think about a place like Unionmade. It costs a fortune to live in SF anywhere near that store. They can't pay a sales associate six figures to sell Aldens & RRL. Bigger chains are crunched further because they don't want to really pay anything to their employees. Hence the in-store experience degrades for customers who are already less inclined to step inside. E-commerce players can get around this by employing the creative team in a metro area and outsourcing fulfillment to a much less expensive external warehouse.

 

[Epaulet]

Boutiques love it when you just go in to try stuff on then order online. (100000)

Yeah, I had to drop quite a few brands as a result of this. Carmina was the worst of them. When they began selling direct to the USA with shipping, the shoes were effectively retailing from Spain for about $50 more than what I was getting them for at wholesale. There was absolutely no way to compete with that. My stores became a free fitting center for online purchases from Carmina, and we had to drop them. If you can't offer a competitive price with the lowest online option, you're going to get "showroomed" all of the time, and its a real cost in both product wear and staff time.

 

[dieworkwear]

Think about a place like Unionmade. It costs a fortune to live in SF anywhere near that store. They can't pay a sales associate six figures to sell Aldens & RRL. Bigger chains are crunched further because they don't want to really pay anything to their employees. Hence the in-store experience degrades for customers who are already less inclined to step inside. E-commerce players can get around this by employing the creative team in a metro area and outsourcing fulfillment to a much less expensive external warehouse.

There was an article in the NYT a few years ago (too lazy to find the link at the moment) that was talking about the changing relationship between sales associates and customers. As people have gotten more and more used to buying online, close and personal relationships with SA almost weird people out. (I may have brought this up before in this thread; can't remember). Most people want to walk into a store, not be bothered or talked to, and only use an SA when they want.

I talked to one shop owner, who said he's found this to be true of his customers. The problem, he said, is that a lot of the stuff he's selling requires a bit of education (can't think of a better word at the moment that doesn't sound condescending, but you guys get my point). If you walk into a store and see a $1000 jacket, you automatically feel like walking out. Until an SA explains to you why that jacket might be worth $1000.

Approaching that customer, however, can be hard if the person is already not into talking to people in a store. They're used a much more private, faceless shopping experience, where they can ask a chat box if they have a question. Or send an email. If they want to learn about something, they read a little description on their own (or a blog post on the site).

He's resorted to putting a little blurb next to some of his items, but that's still not as good as a 15 minute chat.

I'm not sure what service really means then, in the sense of modern retail. Someone who correctly rings you up? Can pick up a size large out of the back room when you ask? The experience is so thin, but partly because the customer also wants it to be.

Contrast this to early- to mid-20th century retailing, at the height of those big luxury dept stores like Saks, where a customer would be proud to have a close relationship with an SA. Someone who says "Hello Mr. Smith!" when you walk in or whatever.

 

[dieworkwear]

Some recent comments on a Permanent Style post:

I visited Anglo Itln a few weeks ago to purchase a suede jacket, some shirts and one or two other items. Whilst pinning the suede jacket for alteration Alex walked off to deal with someone else who had just walked in and called out for a jacket. He then came back to me and continued then went off to look for stock downstairs when another guy walked in and called out. In the end I put my jacket on and politely said I’d return when he was less busy. So surprised was I at this level of service I sent an email to Alex to offer some feedback… he didn’t even bother to reply

Clearly many think these days it’s enough to be cool and have an instagram account. I would urge any entrepreneurs in this sector to pop into A&S and experience the fantastic service from Audie and co… that the way to do it!

This is an experience I’ve had from several of these smaller shops. The staff seem so be too “cool” to actually interacting with the customer (or perhap it’s just me).

Given the outrageous prices demanded personal service should be front and centre, but as Richard points out, perhaps the business model is more based on a social media presence (form over substance once again).

It is completely amazing how completely unfocused the majority are on their customers. It’s like a disease. They claim to have an understanding of service but frankly when it comes to the art of looking after people they don’t know if they are Arthur or Martha.
A combination of ignorance and vanity is often the root cause of the problem and of course, the issue always stems from the top. As the boss does, so does the rest.
A&S Haberdashery are undoubtably the gold standard and of course it all comes from Anda & Audie – they think it’s cool to serve people well !

Feel like I see these kinds of comments all the time, and this sort of attitude is contributing to the death of small businesses. People expect a higher level of service from a small company cause the idea is that smaller = better and more personal. And then they'll compare it to some massive company (e.g. "this isn't how I've been treated at Mr. Porter or Amazon!")

AI sells sport coats for about $1,000. A&S, as far as I'm aware, doesn't sell off the rack sport coats, but they have cotton safari jackets -- not even tailored to the degree you'd need for a sport coat -- for about $2,500. It's also a huge and established brand, at least compared to a new upstart by two guys in their 20s (probably boot strapped).

This then gets interpreted as "hey look at these cool guys who are all about IG and not real service," but it's often more just about resources. If you were paying $2,500 for a cotton safari jacket, I'm sure they could hire another sales associate.

I feel like I see these sorts of comments all the time, often of brands who are trying to provide a distinct level of value in a marketplace often criticized for being overpriced. Someone will offer shoes for $300 and they won't sell. So then they discount them at 50% off, selling remaining stock for $150 -- probably a losing rate given operation costs. Then a customer will complain about how it took three days to ship, versus some other bigger company's next day overnight service. Or how it took three days to answer an email.

I think you can get better and more personal service from a brand, but I also think it's hard to survive these days as a bootstrapped company focusing on value.

 

[Epaulet]

Feel like I see these kinds of comments all the time, and this sort of attitude is contributing to the death of small businesses. People expect a higher level of service from a small company cause the idea is that smaller = better and more personal. And then they'll compare it to some massive company (e.g. "this isn't how I've been treated at Mr. Porter or Amazon!")

Anglo Italian sells sport coats for about $1,000. A&S, as far as I'm aware, doesn't sell off the rack sport coats, but they have cotton safari jackets -- not even tailored to the degree you'd need for a sport coat -- for about $2,500. It's also a huge and established brand, at least compared to a new upstart by two guys in their 20s (probably boot strapped).

@dieworkwear I'd agree, but it's a little bit on both sides.

I think that there can be a distinct air or elitism on the side of SA's. Saw a lot of it in New York. I would get that at Paul Stuart all the time. I'd get it at Supreme (although I guess that's part of their deal). Many of my customers would complain about it at places like Carson Street Clothiers and Gentry.. although I never personally had a bad experience at either store. That certainly happens, and some SA's will judge people on appearance and dismiss them out of hand.

Which BTW is not only the wrong thing to do ethically, it's also the wrong thing practically. The guy who walks into your store dressed up like an Instagram influencer almost never buys anything. The unassuming guy who's curious and maybe a bit apprehensive.. they're the one often doing a lot of the shopping at physical stores. They buy a lot of stuff from you because they don't already have it. I had to stress that to many employees over the years.

But some customers are just ballbusters who are looking for a reason to be upset or feel slighted. And anonymous blog comments are a perfect place to vent their frustration.

 

[clee1982]

I'm the don't want to deal with SA type...

The only time I need SA is to get the tailor/ring it up/get the size...

I much prefer try on myself...

 

[clee1982]

Paul Stuart definitely had some elitism, and as you said almost all NYC small brand does... The big shop usually don't have this issue actually (sake/BG/Barnyes)...

 

[LA Guy]

I have a good restauranteur friend who says that you have to serve everyone with a smile, up to the time when they stand up on a table and drop a deuce on it, and even then, you have to consider whether they are in there alone, or whether there are other patrons to think about.

Essentially, the internet has made tyrants of customers. It's called the Tripadvisor effect, and I've seen the same negative review posted on various travel sites, with very little or no changes. It only takes a couple of one or no star reviews for restaurants to see significant drops in business. i think that the UK's stance on this is overly strict, but the free-for-all the is the US doesn't work either. In our own little ecosystem, I regularly get emails from business owners pleading with me to delete this or that post. Back in the day, I would politely always decline, but now I look at each case individually. Basically, I figure out if the review in question was posted by a member who registered solely for the purpose of posting a negative review, and has not contributed before or since. In that case, I'll delete the review since I have no interest in making Styleforum a place for irate (and honestly, often unreasonable,) customer to carry on their vendettas. Of course, if it's a regular, with notable exceptions, I'll obviously let the review stand.

That said, there are/were SAs who are/were famously indifferent or even hostile to customers. If anyone remembers Nom de Guerre, there was always a Japanese SA who mostly just read books and ignored you altogether. I remember wondering if he would do anything if I just took all of the merchandise and walked out the door. On the other hand, there are SAs who are extraordinarily patient.

 

[LA Guy]

I'm the don't want to deal with SA type...

The only time I need SA is to get the tailor/ring it up/get the size...

I much prefer try on myself...

I don't generally need an SA either, but I'm always civil to them. Also, and I'm sure that guys like @gdl203 and @Epaulet will understand, at smaller boutiques, since I'll very likely run into the boutique owner somewhere - at a tradeshow, at a showroom, whatever, I will generally buy something if I take up very much of their time at all. I have a LOT of socks and accessories.

 

[dieworkwear]

I have a good restauranteur friend who says that you have to serve everyone with a smile, up to the time when they stand up on a table and drop a deuce on it, and even then, you have to consider whether they are in there alone, or whether there are other patrons to think about.

Essentially, the internet has made tyrants of customers. It's called the Tripadvisor effect, and I've seen the same negative review posted on various travel sites, with very little or no changes. It only takes a couple of one or no star reviews for restaurants to see significant drops in business. i think that the UK's stance on this is overly strict, but the free-for-all the is the US doesn't work either. In our own little ecosystem, I regularly get emails from business owners pleading with me to delete this or that post. Back in the day, I would politely always decline, but now I look at each case individually. Basically, I figure out if the review in question was posted by a member who registered solely for the purpose of posting a negative review, and has not contributed before or since. In that case, I'll delete the review since I have no interest in making Styleforum a place for irate (and honestly, often unreasonable,) customer to carry on their vendettas. Of course, if it's a regular, with notable exceptions, I'll obviously let the review stand.

That said, there are/were SAs who are/were famously indifferent or even hostile to customers. If anyone remembers Nom de Guerre, there was always a Japanese SA who mostly just read books and ignored you altogether. I remember wondering if he would do anything if I just took all of the merchandise and walked out the door. On the other hand, there are SAs who are extraordinarily patient.

I imagine everyone here has seen this, but if not. (Skip to the 4 minute, 3 second mark)





Also a classic:

 

[LA Guy]

I've had this exact experience in the Andover shop, minus the English accent, but adding a Bostonian one.

 

[dieworkwear]

I've had this exact experience in the Andover shop, minus the English accent, but adding a Bostonian one.

One of my all time favorite StyFo threads.