Custom White's Boots ... Thoughts?

[sambam]

Just order a 55 last smokejumper (aka Bounty Hunter) - should look identical, shouldn‘t it?[/

Just order a 55 last smokejumper (aka Bounty Hunter) - should look identical, shouldn‘t it?

Yes except for the counter pocket being a little different. Ask for MP toe cap sewing and lowered block heel. No toe box would give it a lower profile also.

 

[sambam]

I am super pleased to hear the Classic Chukka is to be offered with a non-Barrie last option! These are great "boots" that fill a hole in my White's toolbox, but I have not ordered because the support level--for me--is inadequate. That sounds harsh now that I've typed it, but I just cannot wear Barrie-lasted footwear these days.

My feet would not do well walking around on this, it's simply too flat on the inside:

View attachment 981347

I'm more of a 55 or 4811 kind of a guy regarding support requirements--the difference is enormous:

View attachment 981348

Cheers!

Yes quite the difference but our boots built on the barrie last have more support than other shoes built on the barrie last due to our thick leather shank. A couple of friends of mine had to wear inserts in all other brands of boots and shoes but are fine without wearing ours. The Aldens I have in my office are noticeably flatter than my Kinney chukkas.

 

[mboon85]

Yeah Bullhide is very tough and thick! I wear thinner socks with mine. I don't wear my fake tongue on mine though.

View attachment 982325

Yours were actually an inspiration for mine and I think we messaged about that - maybe on SuperFutures? Anyway, I've been trying to wear these with chups because I am a hypebeast and the socks are a bit thick. I've also learned that I might be a skosh wider than a standard D, however, Bakers has assured me these will stretch like my Bison SDs but not as much as the CXL SDs. The Bisons feel great.

That said, I am sending them to Bakers to replace some eyelets (I wanted 4 nickel eyelets on the right boot as I bought these after selling a beloved, epic road tripped Audi and the eyelets would commemorate the Audi rings). They said they could stretch them a little after I sent some pictures of where my foot was tight. I'd like to wear normal Chups thickness socks with them and the false tongue. The false tongue looks dope to me. I am also, for the time being, wearing them with hide laces.

 

[mboon85]

Quick thoughts, perhaps more later:



- Dress leathers are awesomecakes, CXL one are not, so you made the right choice.

FWIW I love my brown CXLs, but I am rough with em.

Why are people always hating on CXL?

 

[Legal Eagles]

FWIW I love my brown CXLs, but I am rough with em.

Why are people always hating on CXL?

I can only speak for myself... I do not hate CXL, but for a boot there are other leathers I like much better. Maybe it has something to do with how soft CXL is and how readily it shows scratches... true you can buff out minor scuffs and scratches with a brush, but in my experience it is not as "tough" as boot leather should be.

Many people get CXL because it is so easy to break in, so after 2 months they have a boot that looks 2 years old... I prefer a boot to look 2 years old after two years of honest wear... I also shine my boots, and I have never been able to get CXL to take a really good shine.

For a plain toe Blucher or a boat shoe, CXL is great... maybe for a city boot (Alden 403 I am looking at you) or chukka CXL is fine as well... for me though... in a boot, there are better choices. But you know what they saw about opinions...

 

[chicken1616]

Hey guys, first post here.

For a long time I've wanted a nice pair of boots. I'm definitely not a dressy guy, so it's no shiny Aldens or Vibergs for me. A couple years back I got a pair of black Carolina loggers that I thought were the bee's knees when I got them, but they don't fit great and are too hot to wear any time of the year except the dead of winter. The quality is decent but not "lifetime" stuff really, so recently when considering spending a bit more on a nice pair of boots for other seasons, it seemed to be the case that boots in the $200-300 range weren't really much of an upgrade over $125 Carolinas, so naturally I found my way to White's.

Bit of research later, and after reading people complaining about quality issues with White's over the last few years, and specifically complaints about inconsistent toe caps, I was taking a hard look at Nick's. However, it seems like in the last year or so the wait times for Nick's have been astronomical, and to top it all off apparently the GM at Nick's, Frank, left and started up his own company (Frank's Boots) taking a whole lot of the talent at Nick's with him. Frank's looks pretty decent, but their website is lacking in listing the customization options and they're not available through Baker's (yet?) so even that seems somewhat of a gamble for my first pair of proper hand-made boots. So...what's the skinny on the quality and turn-around times? And what about those toe caps? I've read through a lot of recent posts in this thread and didn't see any quality issues that really jumped out at me and the toe caps looked fine, but I'd love to hear from anyone who did have issues (or who didn't!).

Here's the build I'm looking at from White's. Again, I'm going for classy casual/utilitarian, something I can wear to work (I'm a teacher) with jeans and polos but which will also work with my regular wardrobe (kind of a metal guy, so I mostly wear black band shirts/hoodies). I'd also like to wear this while traveling/hiking, though probably not for more intense multi-day treks. Let me know your thoughts.

Custom Bounty Hunters via Baker's
Counter Leather: Black Rough Out
Toe Vamp Leather: Brown Dress (this is a pretty dark brown from what I've seen, yeah? sturdier than brown CXL?)
Upper (Shaft) Leather: Brown Dress
Leather Liner: Cream (don't wanna stain the socks!)
Lace Design: Plain Toe
Pull Loops: Leather Pull Loops
Celastic Toe Box: Single Celastic Toe
Toe Cap: Leather Toe Cap
Toe Cap Leather Color: Black Rough Out
Steel Toe: No Thanks
Hardware: Antique Eyes & Hooks
Height: 6" (wouldn't mind going taller but I'd like to save weight)
Top: Cut Top
Midsole: Single
Edge: Brown (really torn between brown and black, figure it's better to try brown and if I don't like it I can always black it up)
Heel: 90 degree blocked off (Traveler)
Heel Lift: 1/4" lower
Sole: Commando Mini Lug Half Sole (am I correct that this is now a more durable rubber than the fast-wearing one they used before?)
Size: 11.5E

Any comments on the build would be appreciated.

The most important thing you need to focus on is what size/last. I always recommend buying a less expensive pair from ebay, etc. from whitesriver or a used pair, in the size you think you need and wearing them for a while (btw, there is a pair of SD's on whitesriver in 11.5EE right now!).
Your foot, your weight, your leg length, arch height, arch position, foot to toe ratio, and other things make your foot unique. Are you wearing insoles? Heavy medium or lightweight socks? Most less well made footwear are so sloppy in fit, that those things are not a consideration.
It would be less than perfect if you were to order a nice looking pair of White's, waiting two months, getting your package, and trying them on just to find out they really don't fit that well.

When it comes to size, it is absolutely better to "err" on the side of too large in size, or too wide in width.

I have 20+ pairs of high arch boots (two Nicks, the rest White's). I wore White's for two years of heavy work at the railroad. One pair were 8" Smoke's with steel toe/external metatarsal guard and a 100F sole. The other were Hathorn 8" Electrical Hazards with steel toe/external met guard and 100F's. Both 55 lasts.
I am a college student now. So, I had the above boots rebuilt, as the bottoms were trashed. The Smokes were smooth brown and the new bottoms are too. The met guard and steel toe are gone, and they have #269 soles. The Hathorns were black, and have Red Dog bottoms with the original black upper, and #700 soles, with the met guard and steel toe gone. Both of these are essentially "Bounty Hunters" now.

I am wearing a pair of 8" smooth brown #690 White's Packers right now with #700 soles. Very nice, with fantastic arch support. Probably my favorites.
A similar boot are my Hathorn Ranch Packer's. 8" smooth brown with #430 soles.
Both of these can look western, or not. They go with almost anything.

I have two pair's of Hathorn Traveler's. The pair in distressed brown were resoled to #269's by Drew's, as the original commando mini lug half sole sucked. I just got in a pair in Red Dog. The new commando mini lug half sole is much better. This is a much overlooked boot. Not many options, but a good solid boot at a good price. It is a C461 last.

I have a pair of Nicks #55 Contender Foresters 8" smooth black, 100F. Nice light boots, compared to Smoke's or Hotshots.
I have a pair of Nicks built Drew's lace to toe packers in smooth reddish brown, 10" and #430. Lot of lacing. Good looking and very supportive, though.

I have two pairs of straight 8" Smoke's, one in smooth black, one in smooth brown. 100F soles. Heavy.

I have two pairs of Hathorn Ranchers, one in brown CXL and one in brown bison. The bisons are #269, the CXL's are #430's. Also one pair of Hathorn Cowboy's in red bull hide, #700. These are pretty stout cowboy boots.

One pair of Hathorn Explorer 10" Packers, #700. Very good at the price point, with very good arch support.

Two pairs of SD's, both leather soled. One pair black CXL, other sienna and black water buffalo, with cap. Very light and flexible, sole lasts longer than you'd expect.

One pair Drew's (Hathorn) buckaroo 10" packers. Round toe, #700 sole. Black upper, red dog vamp, rawhide counters. Good looking, lots of lacing.

Two pairs of Hathorn riding packers. One 10" straight black, with toe bug, #700. The other 12" tan distressed, #700 sole.
Plenty of arch, lots of lacing.

One pair of #690 packers, leather sole, tan bullhide, 8". Very comfortable. Unique.

Spare pair of Hathorn Electrical Hazards.

#38 Swing Smoke's in Red Dog, hooks at the top. Lined. Dropped heel, #700 sole.

Forgot a pair. Hathorn riding packers 10", two tone light smooth and regular smooth brown. 430.


Take Away?

I won't buy anymore 12", 10", or even 8" boots. Just uneccessary. Adds a little weight, lots more work. For heavy work, I'd probably settle on an 8".
There is no reason for a 100 sole, unless needed for work. Way too heavy, and clunky. May impede foot controls in vehicle depending on your size.

I won't ever go without high arch boots. When you're a big guy, you need that support.

I actually like the feel of the leather soles, but you lose arch support, and are limited weather wise. Same with half soles. I prefer the 269 or 430. The 700 is just tolerable.

If I could only have one pair?

Probably #690 packers, 6", #430 sole in Red Dog.

The #38 Swing last fits my foot like a glove, but is a little low on arch support.

The White's standard heel at standard height, works the best. The block heel is not quite as good, and lowered, you lose arch support.

The CXL does not wear well.

I have false tongues on all mine. I order ones that will go all the way to the top of the boot.


I am 72" and about 250 lbs. with a 32" inseam. On the Brannock I measure at a 13 B. I have long low arches and long toes.

 

[chicken1616]

As per the quality issues mentioned, I have not noticed any issues. A few stitches lines are not perfectly spaced every now and then, but that's on older and newer.

 

[brownies]

It's now been over 4 weeks since I asked for leather samples from Bakers... I'm getting a bit tired of waiting. My eye keeps getting drawn to Wesco, and things like this in veg tan. It's hard to find much info on Wesco, surprisingly, their styleforum thread seems completely dead.

Does anyone have experience with this company, and can compare them to Whites? Wesco look a little tidier in their finishing from images I've seen. They're also a bit more expensive though. Anyone able to describe the domain leather? Does it take any sort of a shine? I believe it's waxed, which sounds a little like CXL.

 

[iamntbatman]

Firstly, welcome to the forum!

Thanks!

Why the Bounty Hunter vs. Semi-Dress? The heel counter on the BH makes it a less formal boot seeing as it comes quite far forward (compare to the packer with a shorter heel counter), this will be exacerbated especially by going with a black rough out heel counter.

Like I said, dressy/formal is not at all my thing. I'm going for more of a rugged look as that fits way better with my style. I think this addresses some of your later points as well; if I ever grow up and decide to wear classy clothes, I'd probably just buy a pair of SDs or MPs in distressed smooth or HH or something. These will be daily wear with jeans and black death metal band shirts.

SD is plenty tough for your purposes and IMHO looks better in casual settings. Also, the bounty hunter is on the 55 last... do you know that this last is best for your foot shape? 55 is a good all-purpose boot last, but some benefit from the 4811, 38 Swing, or 461. Last selection is as important as size and width. 11.5 E 38 Swing is like heaven for me... where 11.5 E 461 rubs my little toe... same size, different last, different experience.

Really no idea on the fit or last.. I listed 11.5E because that's just my best guess at size - I'm sending a fit sheet in to Baker's. I have fairly flat, wide feet, and I used to always wear 13s. My Carolinas are 13s but are definitely too big as my foot slides forward. I've moved to a 12 in sneakers and it's pretty good, so I was just going the half step down per the recommendation. We'll see what Baker's says. As for last, I don't need a super tall toe box, but I need a wider/roomy one and don't like pointy ones anyway. I'd also like to avoid the front of the shoe curling up for that bulbous look, if possible, and the 55 last seemed like a solid choice.

Brown Dress is one of the best leathers White's sells - I love it... excellent choice - I don't go for black and brown combos, but again your choice. I think it will look strange on the counter and toe cap. For your first pair of Whites, I would stick with a classic single colour... and brown dress is a classic.

Mehhh...if I'm spending the scratch for boots like these that are able to be customized, I'd much rather have something that looks less "off the shelf." I like the dark brown and black contrast, and since the toe and heel are the most prone to scuffing the rough out makes practical sense. It's a unique look for sure, but I think it could turn out really good.

IMHO all boots should be lined. Cream is really light and will show dirt, I like canyon which is a tan/red... it does not stain my socks.

Good to know. I'll get the tan one then. If there's no risk of sock staining I'd much rather have something that won't show dirt.

Single celastic is good, I might consider a brogue cap toe... it just pushes the boot a little bit more toward dress.

Nope, brogue is absolutely not for me. Looks like something a lawyer or fancy pirate would wear.

Don't like pull loops on a boot 6" or less... never needed them, and one's pant leg can get caught on them, which is a most unfortunate look.

I haven't had boots this short since I was a kid, so for some reason I just imagined that boots need/ought to have them. How else would you even get them on?!? Hah, I'll remove them from the build as I can see how the pants leg thing could be obnoxious.

Edge dressing is easy to darken, harder to lighten... you might try natural, which you can easily stain brown, and even later black if you like it. Black edge dressing to me looks like an army boot, but to each his own.

Hmm...food for thought. Definitely not going for black off the bat (though the army look is not entirely undesirable...) so maybe I'll go natural and darken from there.

Had the Traveler Heel, did not like it... White's standard heel is standard for a reason, it is better to walk on and allows for a more natural gait. Unless you really dislike the aesthetics, I would get the standard curved heel. As far as lowering by 1/4", is there a reason for this other than aesthetics? As I say, Whites knows boots, and heel designs and heights are standard because they work the best for most people. Deviating is taking a risk.

The reason for my heel choice is 1) style (avoiding the cowboy/Euro-dandy tall heel on a boot without a heavy lug) and 2) seemed an easier transition since I'm in sneakers probably 70% of the year. I'm going to spend some time looking at heels...I really don't like a swooping cuban heel. Wouldn't a lowered block heel be better for gait than a taller block heel? I'll keep looking before I nail this down.

You mention using these boots for hiking... I recommend against that... each boot will weight 2.5 - 3 pounds... it does not seem like much but these are definitely not hiking boots. Also, hiking boots get beat to heck with rocks and gravel and thorns, etc. Shame to abuse a pair of boots like this on a hiking trail... Whites makes a dedicated hiking boot, as do many others... not to say you could not hike in these, but you will not want to.

Well, I've done some pretty serious mountain treks in the Carolinas, and those things have a massive lug, steel shank, steel toe, Gore-tex liners and 400g of insulation. They weigh a ton, for sure, but I got used to climbing/hiking in them. Down the line I'd probably get some lace-to-toe hikers, but shoe inventory space at the moment doesn't really allow for such diversity.

As far as the commando sole, make sure you are getting the new TPU and you will be fine.

Yup, those old ones looked real soft but the TPU sounds great.

For your stated purposes, given that these are your first pair of White's, I would go with the following, again my opinion only...Standard (Wide) Trim - hey its White's... wide and proud...

Hmm...I dunno. I don't really like how massively far the edge sticks out from the vamp. I like the double stitch just because it screams "serious business" but the close trim just seems like it'd be better for me.

Thanks again, you've definitely given me a number of choices easier and given me a lot more to think about.

 

[iamntbatman]

Quick thoughts, perhaps more later:

- The length of the shaft makes minimal difference (inb4 that's what she said) in regards to the overall weight: if you like it taller, make it taller!

I'm still not totally sure about this. Taller seems sexier, but even without the weight difference mattering much, it might be more of a deal breaker for wearing in warm weather. Gotta think on it.

- Celastic toe is always a bit iffy when the boot ages. Leather toe caps are plenty sturdy, IMO.

What does "iffy" mean in this context? I really dislike the collapsed toe look so wanted to avoid it at nearly all costs.

- Double midsoles look the bee's knees when coupled with half soles (but do add weight).

I'll look more at this to see what I think, but saving weight might take priority.

- Black rough out toe caps on brown dress boots? You are either a genius or a madman and the distinction might be beyond us to make.

"Or"? Why not both? I dunno, the more I look at treated rough-out like in the stock fire boots at White's, Nick's, etc., and the more I look at the color of the brown dress, the more I'm captivated by the contrast between them. I think this would be hard to change my mind on.

- Dress leathers are awesomecakes, CXL one are not, so you made the right choice.

Yeah, that brown dress is gorgeous. The CXL looks ok, but too soft and easy-scuffing. Plus not dark enough!

- Lowering the heels: don't do it, unless you insist, in which case go ahead and do it. But don't. The geometry of the boot works the best when the heels are left to be as they were intended.

Hmm...like I said in reply to LegalEagle, I have a few reasons for going this way, but I'll keep staring at more boot photos until I make up my mind one way or the other.

- Leaving the edges natural would look great on a dress brown boot with half soles, making the profile that much more distinct.

Yep, leaning this way now, since I can use edge dressing later if I wind up disliking it.

Thanks for your thoughts!

 

[iamntbatman]

The most important thing you need to focus on is what size/last. I always recommend buying a less expensive pair from ebay, etc. from whitesriver or a used pair, in the size you think you need and wearing them for a while (btw, there is a pair of SD's on whitesriver in 11.5EE right now!).
Your foot, your weight, your leg length, arch height, arch position, foot to toe ratio, and other things make your foot unique. Are you wearing insoles? Heavy medium or lightweight socks? Most less well made footwear are so sloppy in fit, that those things are not a consideration.
It would be less than perfect if you were to order a nice looking pair of White's, waiting two months, getting your package, and trying them on just to find out they really don't fit that well.

When it comes to size, it is absolutely better to "err" on the side of too large in size, or too wide in width.

Unfortunately I don't really have those sorts of options easily available to me. I currently live in South Korea so many people won't ship here, or it's super expensive. I'm planning on moving to a different continent within a year from now so having yet another pair of boots on hand that I don't really want or need would be a pain, and I wouldn't be able to resell boots here since 1) Koreans have no interest in this kind of footwear and don't buy anything used ever anyway and 2) Korean feet tend toward the smaller size so even if they DID like this style nobody would buy them in my size anyway. So basically it'd be a huge monetary investment for a size check. I'm going to do my absolute best with the fit sheet and with giving Kyle at Baker's my details.

I won't buy anymore 12", 10", or even 8" boots. Just uneccessary. Adds a little weight, lots more work. For heavy work, I'd probably settle on an 8".
There is no reason for a 100 sole, unless needed for work. Way too heavy, and clunky. May impede foot controls in vehicle depending on your size.

I won't ever go without high arch boots. When you're a big guy, you need that support.

I actually like the feel of the leather soles, but you lose arch support, and are limited weather wise. Same with half soles. I prefer the 269 or 430. The 700 is just tolerable.

If I could only have one pair?

Probably #690 packers, 6", #430 sole in Red Dog.

The #38 Swing last fits my foot like a glove, but is a little low on arch support.

The White's standard heel at standard height, works the best. The block heel is not quite as good, and lowered, you lose arch support.

The CXL does not wear well.

I have false tongues on all mine. I order ones that will go all the way to the top of the boot.

I am 72" and about 250 lbs. with a 32" inseam. On the Brannock I measure at a 13 B. I have long low arches and long toes.

Don't like the fringe on the false tongues at all, so I will probably leave mine out. I think you and I have pretty different taste in boots/style; the packer/cowboy boot and red dog leathers are approaching the antithesis of what I'd want in a boot! I definitely don't want the heavy lug for everyday wear. I was originally torn between the 430 and 700. I was leaning 700 because it seemed slightly better for off-road walking, but then it also seemed like it might feel weird with the lugs only in the center and the edges of the sole up off the floor when standing on flat surfaces. The commando half-sole really seems perfect for me.

I'm not as tall as you, 5'10", but I swing between about 195 and 220 lbs depending on where I'm at in the cut/bulk rotation...hmm. Maybe even with my flatter feet that higher arch might be good. I just have concerns about shifting between flat sneakers and high-arch boots on the regular.

 

[Crit_Obs]

I just have concerns about shifting between flat sneakers and high-arch boots on the regular.

My archs are naturally flat(ish) and while I hate sounding like a tele-evangelist, I must say wearing White's & Nick's has changed the way I stand and walk; I notice myself walking as if my sneakers had arch-support, even though they are actually flatter than Kansas.

Purely on a FWIW basis only, naturally.

 

[chicken1616]

Unfortunately I don't really have those sorts of options easily available to me. I currently live in South Korea so many people won't ship here, or it's super expensive. I'm planning on moving to a different continent within a year from now so having yet another pair of boots on hand that I don't really want or need would be a pain, and I wouldn't be able to resell boots here since 1) Koreans have no interest in this kind of footwear and don't buy anything used ever anyway and 2) Korean feet tend toward the smaller size so even if they DID like this style nobody would buy them in my size anyway. So basically it'd be a huge monetary investment for a size check. I'm going to do my absolute best with the fit sheet and with giving Kyle at Baker's my details.



Don't like the fringe on the false tongues at all, so I will probably leave mine out. I think you and I have pretty different taste in boots/style; the packer/cowboy boot and red dog leathers are approaching the antithesis of what I'd want in a boot! I definitely don't want the heavy lug for everyday wear. I was originally torn between the 430 and 700. I was leaning 700 because it seemed slightly better for off-road walking, but then it also seemed like it might feel weird with the lugs only in the center and the edges of the sole up off the floor when standing on flat surfaces. The commando half-sole really seems perfect for me.

I'm not as tall as you, 5'10", but I swing between about 195 and 220 lbs depending on where I'm at in the cut/bulk rotation...hmm. Maybe even with my flatter feet that higher arch might be good. I just have concerns about shifting between flat sneakers and high-arch boots on the regular.

When you talk to Kyle, make sure you tell him anything about your feet that seems out of the ordinary. He's only human, but he is pretty good at what he does.

The #700 sole is slippery in the winter, and doesn't wear well. There is really nothing that the #430 can't do better. The #269 is the closest a full sole can be looking like a half sole or leather sole from the side. I think it wears better than the #700, and is better on icy sidewalks than the other two. More flexible, also. The issue is that the bigger, and especially wider sizes, usually can only come with the #700. An 11.5 E should be available in all soles. If you are looking at the half sole, I think you would absolutely be satisfied with the 269. In wet weather, a leather sole or half sole can soak up moisture really fast. The 100F absolutely sucks around ice, and even certain wet surfaces. The other 100 tread compound iterations are a little better. but it is really best suited for what it was made for: Wildland firefighting.
Gait-wise, a lowered block sole would be better than a standard height block sole, but lowering loses arch support. The standard heel gives you the best of both. I can't answer to the way you think it looks, but I really don't like a block heel looks wise on these boots. It looks out of place. If you think the standard heel looks "dandy" there are plenty of hard working guys out there that would take issue with that. As to lowering, on a non 100 sole, the heel on a 55 last is pretty low any way. If you get it too low, especially on a half sole, that leather arch protrusion on the middle of the sole will literally start dragging on the ground, when your weight is on it.
The standard trim on the sole (as opposed to the close) actually protects the vamp leather by being a kind of bumper.
Yes I do own a lot of packers, but if you notice I have almost every style there is. I wear the style appropriate to the occasion.

Based on what you want and what I know, I would build like this:
Your leather combination.
#38 Swing (or 9338 last)
#430 sole
Standard Trim.
Standard heel.
6" or 7" height.

 

[iamntbatman]

Hmm, I'm a bit confused: you were saying that I should be totally satisfied with the 269, but in your build you suggested a 430? The reason I was leaning away from something like the 430 or 269 is while they look good for urban environments they look like they'd be near useless offroad. I mean, obviously I have not worn these shoes and would defer to those who have, but the goal is something that doesn't wear too fast, would be comfortable for standing/walking in urban environments for long periods, and which would be useful for moderate offroad use. I realize this is probably a "choose two of the above" situation, but I'm not as worried about ice as I'd just wear the Carolinas in such weather.

Sorry if the term "dandy" offended. Next time I'll just say it's not my style and leave it at that. Maybe I'll keep staring at the curved heels until I don't hate them. I've got a while before I've got to decide, anyway, as I'd still like to rustle up some more thoughts on the Frank's before pulling the trigger on the White's, and it'll take a while for the fit sheet to get to Baker's.

 

[Legal Eagles]

Hmm, I'm a bit confused: you were saying that I should be totally satisfied with the 269, but in your build you suggested a 430? The reason I was leaning away from something like the 430 or 269 is while they look good for urban environments they look like they'd be near useless offroad. I mean, obviously I have not worn these shoes and would defer to those who have, but the goal is something that doesn't wear too fast, would be comfortable for standing/walking in urban environments for long periods, and which would be useful for moderate offroad use. I realize this is probably a "choose two of the above" situation, but I'm not as worried about ice as I'd just wear the Carolinas in such weather.

Sorry if the term "dandy" offended. Next time I'll just say it's not my style and leave it at that. Maybe I'll keep staring at the curved heels until I don't hate them. I've got a while before I've got to decide, anyway, as I'd still like to rustle up some more thoughts on the Frank's before pulling the trigger on the White's, and it'll take a while for the fit sheet to get to Baker's.

If you want to be double sure, send a fit sheet to Bakers and Whites independently and ask for their recommended sizing in different lasts. They are usually pretty close and if within 1 width or 1/2 size I would go with the larger recommended size. If there is more than 1 width or 1 size difference between the two, I would regroup and call Kyle... if you go with Baker's they will guarantee the fit.

I know this may not be possible, but there is really no substitute for trying on a pair in a known size, width, and last. If you don't have a stocking dealer nearby, I second the suggestion to get a used pair off eBay to try. And I also second the advice that when in doubt, go larger, not smaller. Larger can be fixed (within reason) smaller will always be a PITA.