Custom White's Boots ... Thoughts?

[jrosenthal]



Not to derail this thread but I'm genuinely curious as to how conforming to gov't regulation forces a small domestic bootmaker to ship boots with defects? That's a non-sequitur; I see a massive gap in the logic. Fill me in, I'm way too curious to learn if this is actually an issue.

I can't speak for the poster to whom you are referencing, but I think he was expressing his fear that White's, under the new ownership, may fall victim to the same outsourcing that brought down the brand quality of many fine US brands including Danner, Wolverine and Redwing. Sure they still make "some" of their products in the US, but they are selling their imported products side-by-side with the US made products and only savvy customers who read the fine print and know what they are looking for would know the difference at the time of purchase.
The political side to this started in the early 90's with NAFTA (at the time we used to call it the "North America's Free let's Trade it Agreement) allowing US companies who maintained a US corporate base to manufacture overseas without the importation duties that weighed so heavily on them prior, hence cheap labor and no importation taxes. The way companies got away with this prior was to manufacture in US territories (primarily Guam and neighboring islands) using Chinese indentured laborers making 50 cents a day, but because it was a US territory they could put "made in USA" on the label....this is not speculation or hyperbole, I actually visited several of these factories in the late 80's.

Many of us buy White's, as we bought Danner and Wolverne and Redwing back in the day, because they are US made, the quality is expected, and the political implications are implied. Purchasing US made goods IS a political issue. It is telling the large corporations who have decided to abandon the US labor force that we will not give them our money. It is a grueling daily battle to try and keep my money in this country....and even though there has been a resurgence in "buying local", that has been exploited by the large corporations by buying small companies that maintain a US based manufacturing facility and lumping it into their portfolio...it provides certain tax breaks across their books and allows them to boast of their investment domestically...but is is a sham.

Sorry for the rant, but I think everyone here can agree that buying White's is as much a political choice as it is a style or work-practical choice.

James

 

[b-ewing]

There's a whole heap of guesstimation in here as far as what ABC will do with White's operations from this point forward. I can't imagine however that they would ever ship their productions overseas- no way, not gonna happen. At least not under the White's flagship name. Hawthorn uses imported components. So I could see an eventual migration in that direction under this or another White's wing, but not the main one. That iconic box emblazed with "Made in USA" and the obnoxiously large American flag is too integral to the brand identiy and important to it's customer base.

That said, I'm in a wait and see mode. Wait till I get some more cash, and see about ordering some Nick's

But unlike some of the other comments on here, I for one have never ever ever had anything but a stellar experience when dealing with Baker's and have no plans to take my business elsewhere. In fact, I'm in talks right now about having Baker's do a rebuild on a pair of vintage engineers for me- gonna be cool as a cuke, bros

It's a complete shame to see some of the shoddy craftsmanship coming off the factory line these days- some of it can and always has been chalked up as the byproduct of "handmade", other examples are arguable just the byproduct of laziness (such as Gregornz's). Having said that, I would give all parties the benefit of a doubt that this will get sorted out in a reasonable, fair, and compensatory (within logic) manner. Passions can run high in these moments, but be careful not to spill the emotion unfairly over onto a company's business name and reputation. If they're reputable they'll deal with it like reputable dudes. Ok I'm done

 

[jrosenthal]



There's a whole heap of guesstimation in here as far as what ABC will do with White's operations from this point forward. I can't imagine however that they would ever ship their productions overseas- no way, not gonna happen. At least not under the White's flagship name. Hawthorn uses imported components. So I could see an eventual migration in that direction under this or another White's wing, but not the main one. That iconic box emblazed with "Made in USA" and the obnoxiously large American flag is too integral to the brand identiy and important to it's customer base.

That said, I'm in a wait and see mode. Wait till I get some more cash, and see about ordering some Nick's

But unlike some of the other comments on here, I for one have never ever ever had anything but a stellar experience when dealing with Baker's and have no plans to take my business elsewhere. In fact, I'm in talks right now about having Baker's do a rebuild on a pair of vintage engineers for me- gonna be cool as a cuke, bros

It's a complete shame to see some of the shoddy craftsmanship coming off the factory line these days- some of it can and always has been chalked up as the byproduct of "handmade", other examples are arguable just the byproduct of laziness (such as Gregornz's). Having said that, I would give all parties the benefit of a doubt that this will get sorted out in a reasonable, fair, and compensatory (within logic) manner. Passions can run high in these moments, but be careful not to spill the emotion unfairly over onto a company's business name and reputation. If they're reputable they'll deal with it like reputable dudes. Ok I'm done

Well stated!
I also just want to add for levity sake that our collective complaints, are indeed "first world problems". We can afford to buy $500+ boots however hard we had to save for them. We can eat, have shelter, and afford to be choosy about our footwear....let's all maintain some perspective.

James

 

[gregornz]

I got this email from Kyle today:

Thank you for your email and information.

First off, I want to apologize for this entire situation. This is uncharacteristic of White’s and ourselves to have this accumulation of errors in a pair of boots.

I had a personal phone conversation with the White’s president for 25 minutes regarding this situation and we also spoke about White’s QC as a whole. He read the Style Forum thread and between the two of us, we are both sick to our stomachs that this boot was received by you.

The person who “checked” these boots in on our end, is no longer an employee of Baker’s Shoes after an 8 year tenure – please be assured that this pair is a melon boot and isn’t a representation of White’s quality overall. I realize that we (Baker’s Shoe’s) overlooked these flaws too and I am going to take full responsibility for that error. Since that employee is no longer here, I have also included Brandon on this email who manages that area so he’s aware. We as a company take pride in product knowledge and customer service and I am sorry that we failed in this case.

Solution: I would like to “donate” that pair of boots to you. If you want to wear them, throw them away or donate them, that’s 100% your choice. We are going to make you another pair of these boots at no cost to you. White’s and myself are going to push another pair through for you in 10-14 business days starting tomorrow.

I do understand your frustration and I am as pissed off as you are – this is not the way we want products to be sent to our customers. I realize we are in the “boot business” but I feel like we’re more in the people business. We want our customers to be 100% satisfied with products we sell and what we represent.

Thank you for your understanding and patience – we greatly appreciate you as a customer and hope you can forgive us and White’s Boots in this situation.

Regards,

Kyle

I'm very happy, and this is exactly the response I expected to Bakers and White's, so good on them!

 

[b-ewing]

Group hug, guys!

 

[climbinglife]

Kyle is Awesome! And whereas that shouldn't have happened to you, their remedy is exactly how you want a company like Whites/Bakers to react.

 

[trvlr472]

Not to derail this thread but I'm genuinely curious as to how conforming to gov't regulation forces a small domestic bootmaker to ship boots with defects? That's a non-sequitur; I see a massive gap in the logic. Fill me in, I'm way too curious to learn if this is actually an issue.

That's actually quite easy. When a company has to spend money on non-essential equipment like worthless safety gear, ridiculously high insurance premiums, bogus lawsuits, benefits that everyone seems to think their employer is supposed to pay for that they also think they are entitled to, office staff. lawyers and accountants to help them manage the maze of government regulations, tax law that money comes from somewhere. To get the money employees end up working longer hours while making more mistakes. They get paid less because the money is being diverted to other things the company shouldn't have to even be dealing with and you end up with quality going out the door and eventually the business leaving the country. People will only pay so much for certain things. When the price gets too high people stop buying the product.

I work in the trucking industry. I could fill pages with examples of what government regulations and taxation has done to the industry and for the most part it's resulted in worse drivers being out on the road, lower pay and perpetually exhausted, stressed out employees across the board. Who screw up on a regular basis. Building boots is a whole different industry but I'm sure we'd be surprised to know what THEY have to deal with. I don't know what goes on inside of White's but I've worked for small businesses all my life (up until recently) and what I've just mentioned above has taken it's toll over the last 30 years.

Now I'm done derailing the thread. It wasn't my intention. All I wanted to point out is that when government starts running a business from 2000 miles away with no knowledge or expertise whatsoever on how to run that business that's when the problems start. Unfortunately, people blame the company, not the perpetrator of the problem every single time.

 

[meso]

Hey look at that. A company doing the right thing.

 

[trvlr472]

Fantastic news. It looks like White's and Bakers have come through. I'll definitely be going through Bakers the next pair of White's I buy.

 

[simonchiu]

What are the second shoe brands and models

 

[simonchiu]

Yeah, my horsehides are right here:

http://www.styleforum.net/t/219173/custom-whites-boots-thoughts/360#post_5182953

I've never had a problem with the tan leather lining bleeding to my socks. Yet, I usually wear brown/tan socks so I probably wouldn't know if I did anyway. I'm not a fan of the regular "arch ease" height of the heel (whether Cuban or blocked off) just due to the height. My first pair was with the standard height heel and it felt like I was wearing high heels. My next pair I had lowered and this felt better to me and more in line with Red Wing and Wolverine 1k Mile boots. It's just a personal preference... some say the lowered heel kills the look of White's semi dress and maybe there's something to that. But I'm willing to make the aesthetic tradeoff w/ the lowered heel.

As for my favorites, that'd have to be the "Classic Brown" SD's. You can see them here:

http://www.styleforum.net/t/219173/custom-whites-boots-thoughts/840#post_5832817

I just feel like I got the whole config right on these and the classic brown leather is just amazing. A close second are the horsehides.

As for what's coming up... I have a pair of Semi-Dress in Brown Bison leather on order. That should be interesting -- I'll also post those pics when they arrive. In addition (!) I've started to experiment with the White's "Classic Workboot" with another #8 Chromeexcel on order that's going to be VERY interesting. They are basically going to match/emulate these Horseman Joe boots from the Red Wing Euro blog which blew me away:

http://redwing1905.blogspot.com/2013/04/thegracyboys.html




Here's the config I submitted in order to match those. Think I got it about right?

White's Classic Work Boot
Sole Leather, Heel Lifts Standard, Edge Brown, Upper (Shaft) Leather #8 Burgundy Chrome Excel by Horween, Midsole Double, Toe Cap No Thanks, Leather Liner Tan, Sole Trim Close Trim, Toe Vamp Leather #8 Burgundy Chrome Excel by Horween, Heel Base Standard, Hardware All Antique Eyes, Celastic Toe Box Single Celastic Toe, Lace Design Plain Toe, Counter Leather #8 Burgundy Chrome Excel by Horween, Height 6"

I'll post photos of them when they come in (8-10 weeks at the moment due to fire season for White's).

What are the second boots brands and models.


I want to know their information，Brand ：Model：Leather：...
thanks

 

[jrosenthal]



I got this email from Kyle today:
I'm very happy, and this is exactly the response I expected to Bakers and White's, so good on them!

Wow, that was exactly the response that "should" have happened. I am thoroughly impressed by this which is actually sad becuse this is how any business should have handled it, just shows how uncommon good customer service is these days. Kudos to both Baker's and White's for picking up the ball and throwing it in with nothing but net. I will be placing my order for my second pair of White's today.

James

 

[conak]



I got this email from Kyle today:
I'm very happy, and this is exactly the response I expected to Bakers and White's, so good on them!

Nice! I'd say they went above and beyond on this one. They made it right, and that's good to see. Retailers like Bakers will help prevent any slides in QC if the day ever comes that the new board of directors of the holding company that bought Whites starts to pressure them to cut costs.

Unfortunately, I discovered Whites a bit late, after a long time enjoying the british boots like Trickers, so I only have one pair ( farmer/rancher), but I love them and have been planning my next buy until I read that Whites was sold. My dad has a pair of Chippewas from late 60's or early 70s which are amazingly built, but you look at a Chippewa today, and they are decent at best. I hope Whites doesn't go that way, and I think if retailers continue to demand the original quality for their customers then that will help.

For some perspective though, I would suggest that there is probably a much higher demand for whites than there ever was, now that quality work gear is considered fashionable, which means they've probably increased their staff to keep up with demand and they probably have workers who are still gaining experience. Being that they are meant for work, I wouldn't be too upset about the glue stain, but the heel height difference is inexcusable and would make for some serious back pain if you wear them every day for 8+ hours a day.

 

[jrosenthal]



Nice! I'd say they went above and beyond on this one. They made it right, and that's good to see. Retailers like Bakers will help prevent any slides in QC if the day ever comes that the new board of directors of the holding company that bought Whites starts to pressure them to cut costs.

Unfortunately, I discovered Whites a bit late, after a long time enjoying the british boots like Trickers, so I only have one pair ( farmer/rancher), but I love them and have been planning my next buy until I read that Whites was sold. My dad has a pair of Chippewas from late 60's or early 70s which are amazingly built, but you look at a Chippewa today, and they are decent at best. I hope Whites doesn't go that way, and I think if retailers continue to demand the original quality for their customers then that will help.

For some perspective though, I would suggest that there is probably a much higher demand for whites than there ever was, now that quality work gear is considered fashionable, which means they've probably increased their staff to keep up with demand and they probably have workers who are still gaining experience. Being that they are meant for work, I wouldn't be too upset about the glue stain, but the heel height difference is inexcusable and would make for some serious back pain if you wear them every day for 8+ hours a day.

I agree with everything but the glue stain thing. Work wear or not, that's just sloppy and would have been caught by any of the big brands and sold as a factory second. A smaller company who is known for quality and custom builds should have NEVER let that slip by.
Totally agree and understand about the learning curve of new staff but White's need to make sure they have their inspectors/packagers/shippers checking the product on the way out the door and sending anything that looks less than quality standards back to the line for repair/redo. I remember getting the "inspected by" paper tags in products all the time from winter coats to shoes and even underwear and t-shirts, sometimes with hand written initials.....haven't seen that in a while.

James

 

[gregornz]

If I bought the boots as work wear I would be much less worried about markings, and much more worried about wonky heels.

I bought them as dress boots, so the heels don't bother me too much, the stain does.

On a related note, I told Kyle not to send an exact copy of those boots, but he insisted. Now I have two pair... I could never bring myself to throw away a perfectly functional pair of whites...