Construction issue with Rider boots

[lawyerdad]

Originally Posted by teddieriley

+1.

Originally Posted by JayJay

+2
LOL, Nexus's (unperverted) PM to me: you are either a bad lawyer or no lawyer at all. Gee counsellor, They were like brand-new when I bought them. Clearly you are just agitating that thread instead of clarifying. you also PERVERTED, that is, knowingly distorted my words, by underlining and bolding my text. It was a manufacturer defect. you missed the point entirely. And since he seems concerned about being misrepresented, here's the preceding portion of our dialogue for context: Quote: Originally Posted by lawyerdad Quote: Originally Posted by Nexus6 Whats your problem? No problem, really. Just not seeing how you can insist it's a manufacturing issue when you have problems with shoes you bought from a thrift store -- since you have no idea what treatment they may have been subjected to by prior owners. Thus the little "confused" guy. Also, I completely agree with all of the compliments thrown Ron's way -- he's a great guy to deal with.

 

[Nexus6]

Analysis & Summation

We begin with a thread entitled: Construction issue with Rider boots
The OP presents an issue (his words) and a concern....

Originally Posted by blackplatano

I got some wingtip boots made by Ron Rider at the B&S not too long ago. The boots had only been tried on judging by what the seller told me and how new the soles were when I got them. Since then I have only worn the boots 2-3 times, including today.

Well today I'm walking down the street and bend down to tie my shoes, when I noticed that theres a separation where the leather meets the sole. "WTF?" It's what I thought.
I don't know the seriousness of the issue or whether it's common with Rider's boots, but I was under the impression that construction was a little more durable.

I will post pics later on today.

OP (Blackplatano) has stated his concern.

Among the responses.....

Originally Posted by Cary Grant

I've a pair that I've tramped through rain, city streets, all over London... through the woods... and they're about indestructable.

But even the best brands might suffer an issue once in a million.

and an assurance....

Ron reads and posts here. And he'll get to the bottom of things if it is indeed the shoe. I've messaged him.

Other responses....

Originally Posted by JayJay

I have over a half dozen pairs of Rider boots and a couple pairs of shoes. No problems with any of them.

Originally Posted by DrCool1978

I had the same problem with my pair of martegani's.

And some verbal diarrhea...

Originally Posted by Douglas

Ron is a hell of a guy and makes a hell of a product. ....Ron is a fantastic human being and a tremendous asset to SF, ....
I am certain that he will give you full consideration, but I think it's appropriate and fair that this issue see the full light of day, just so that anything that comes out of this is fully vetted and nobody's good name is besmirched inappropriately....

Whoever said that Ron Rider was not a nice guy? No One

Whoever said that Ron's business ethics were not good? No One

Therefore, Douglas' Non Sequitur comments are irrelavent to the point.

Now, an assurance, perhaps to comfort the OP...

Originally Posted by DocHolliday

My dealings with Ron have always been outstanding. He's bent over backwards to make sure I was happy. I haven't bought any of his Rider boots yet, but I've purchased several Marteganis from him. I have a pair of shell chukkas that are probably my most abused shoes, but they're holding up great.

Again, no one was ever disputing or questioning Ron Rider the man,
so where does this come from?
Nowhere.

Now some photos from the OP.....

Originally Posted by blackplatano

Here are the pics.

I couldn't post any pics earlier, but now I'm home so I took some pictures of the issue. it's a little difficult to photograph how it really looks in real life but it gets the point across.

The left side of the right foot is where the separation lies.

The closeups reveal clearly why the OP started the thread.
Clearly visible separation.
Does this mean tht Ron Rider is no longer a good man? NO
Does this mean that Ron Rider somehow cheated this OP? NO
Does this put into question Ron Riders credibility? NO WAY.
Do these photos focus on a specific concern to the OP for this one issue alone? YES
Does this mean anything at all at this point that we can conclude from? NO

Now...a post of denial of the obvious

Originally Posted by gdl203

There seems to be nothing wrong on these pictures. What exactly is the problem?

Then...an acknowledgement of the problem visible in the photos...

Originally Posted by bigbris1

This happened to me on a pair of shoes that had a false welt feather. Some cement should clean that up.

And another acknowledgement....

Originally Posted by mafoofan

You mean filling in the gap with cement or actually trying to re-seal the upper to the welt?

Obviously these 2 people CAN see the problem in the photos.

Now, an idiotic posting...

Originally Posted by unagiluva

While trying to bring to light some possible construction issues with Ron's shoes, you have effectively made me want to buy another pair from him.
Those boots are NICE.

Did anyone say the boots were not nice? NO
Clearly unagiluva is deliberately agitating with his post.

Now, a posting of re-assurance, short sweet and assuring.

Originally Posted by rand

All of my dealings with Ron have been truly outstanding
+1

And this further acknowledgement of the problem clearly visible in the photos...

Originally Posted by LesterSnodgrass

I have a pair of Martegani chukkas that have the same problem. I have decided to live with it, but if you have any luck with a cobbler, post your results. If it was a cheap fix I'd have it done.

Looks like this may be a common Martegani/Rider Boot construction issue. Nonetheless, Ron is a gentleman and a scholar.

I don't see why some people feel a need to defend Ron as a human being,
when not once did anyone say anything to the contrary. Do you?
Ron's persona is not in question here.
Only the seperation or spacing of shoe/welt is the concern.


Then magically, a master shoemaker appears....

Originally Posted by MARTEGANI

HI to Everibody.

....
Please kindly ask RON about every problems , before prejudge.
We love our job and any suggest or problems on our product are welcome to adjust them.
I hope my english is not so bad.......

Giancarlo

Clearly this was well-intended, only no one was 'judging' anything.


Yet another member has now seen the photos, and adds....

Originally Posted by dkzzzz

I have the same "issue" with my Ciro Lendini Chelsea boots which I choose to ignore.

And why did he 'choose to ignore the issue on his own 'Other-Brand' shoes?
Because he knew it would not affect the performance of the shoes

MEANING...that the issue that the OP is concerned about, is probably nothing to worry about

+1

Even yet another member sees the photos and comments...

Originally Posted by T4phage

I've had the same problem with a Heschung boot, but mine was goodyear with a storm welt

Then, my own post.....

Originally Posted by Nexus6

If AE did something like that, there would be a mass frenzy flaming AE 'quality control';
labelling them 'seconds' or recommending they be returned.

This is actually truth. Which, for mysterious reasons, no one acknowledges.
Yet it is still the truth.

Something is not right here with the obvious bias.
No one was suggesting Mr Rider is a bad person or unqualified.
It was a straight-forward question about a concern the OP has about his shoes.
And I have to agree with the OP, I would have posted a concern myself.
It is 100% noticeable...especially if he paid retail.

I purchased shoes at retail that had the exact same problem.
(to clarify- They were another company.)
I was and still am furious about that purchase.

The brand I purchased was 'DAVID's' of Toronto 'house brand'.

If the pair I bought had been discounted and marked as seconds,
I would have no problems at all.

On the other hand,
I bought a pair of AE Bel Air's and the stitching was jumping in & out of the sole trench.
Paid retail too. But it didn't bother me at all.

Your boots are beautiful looking though.
It will be interesting to see how they wear over the next month or two.
Please keep us updated.

I, myself offered a compliment to the OPS beautiful Rider Boots.

Now....a second post of denial of the clear evidence in the photos,
that OTHERS can plainly see, this person still cannot....

Originally Posted by gdl203

There seems to be nothing wrong with these shoes

I am suprised and saddened at this ^ from this member.


Now...I went and photo's a pair of shoes that I own,
which have problems.
I posted the photos of a pair of BALLY shoes, and CLEARLY stated,
that it is a different problem entirely,
but the POINT of posting MY photos, was to re-assure the OP, that his own concerns
may be unfounded.
Here was my post....

Originally Posted by Nexus6

Just so you won't feel so bad...
Here's some pictures of a pair of Bally Of Switzerland Summer Shoes I have here.
I know this is a completely different animal altogether,
but the principle of quality control is still the issue...


Now, the shoes were originally white.
I got them at a thrift store last year for $8 (CDN), so I don't know what the retail was.
I dyed them black because the white was too 'old mannish' for me.
Wore them about a dozen times..very light wearing..
..and look at them now.

Retail or not...this is a massive f*** up on Bally's part.
Made in Switzerland too!
Lucky for them I cannot return them....

Easy enough to understand....you would think....

until this....
Post #38

Originally Posted by lawyerdad

You'll have to scroll back to see how he perverted the meaning of my post,
by adding giant fonts, underlines, and bolding certain words, in a deliberate
attempt to distort what I was stating.
It is a tired and obvious and well-known lawyer tactic intended to diminish credibility.

Now, some dum-dums come in quick with some support for the not-so-crafty lawyerdad,
to futher stir the pot into a frenzy

Originally Posted by teddieriley

+1.

Originally Posted by JayJay

+2

And another dum-dum....

Originally Posted by Dewey

Nexus6, I don't think you understand Blake rapid construction. (I'm not sure I do either.

Uhh...yes sir, I do know what Blake Construction is.

Still--) Your shoe does not look like it was made the same way. So your example vs the Rider boot example is apples and oranges.

What a very astout observation!
Since I had ALREADY CLARIFIED that very point in my post,
which either you did not READ properly, or INFER properly or chose to IGNORE

Giancarlo's post is not the easiest thing to follow, but maybe you should re-read it and ask questions if you don't follow what he is saying. I think I understand him, but I am not an expert on this, so I will not attempt to translate anything literally.

Who is questioning Giancarlos post? You are..not me.


Now...here is an excerpt ofthe posting by Ron Rider Himself....

Originally Posted by RIDER

Thanks for the positive feedback guys, I appreciate it! And Gianca, thanks for seeing this and posting a reply while I have been busy at a Trunk Show.

And, Nexus6, don't worry....the client and I took care of this privately a few days ago....I didn't post on the thread but communicated directly with the OP. If something is of concern regarding any of my boots, without regard to if they were purchased directly from me or second hand in any other venue, I like to know about it. In this case, there is no technical defect, but I can certainly see how it would be a concern, and is worth the conversation. AND, I would certainly hope no bias would come into play....money doesn't play favorites and an investment is an investment. My boots are certainly an investment, and they are expected to give many years of service.

For this construction (the Tirolese, or what an American customer would know as a Storm Welt) we use a floating top welt....it is not stitched thru the upper, and is simply an added .5 CM measure of water-repellency......


.......
Ok, all for now...hope that helps, and it's a good post - I'm glad it came up.

And, just to clarify how I work, the OP and I have communicated almost immediately after this thread went up, and he has an open invitation to send the boots to me for inspection/adjustment - as do all of my clients! I do not believe in perfection - don't even attempt to pursue it - but do believe in honest, straight-forward communication and, ultimately, client satisfaction. After I explain my position on anything, the customer will decide how I proceed. - your the boss!

Ron


Dear Mr. Rider,
Please be informed that there are some trouble-makers here on SF, who like to use dirty tactics to twist and pervert the meaning and intention of some of my posts.

I am typing this to you both here on this thread,
and also privately, so that there will be no way anyone can further lead you to beleive anything against my person or intentions.

I have seen your work. It is beautiful work.
I have seen every photo on your website, and again, it is beautiful work.
I have read through countless other threads on SF and other websites about your work,
and every single pair of footwear you have made, looks like a work of art.
I am deeply saddened that there are some people here,
that would deliberately and repeatedly (and illegally) besmirch my character and / or my intentions .
Clearly the only ones dis-respecting your name, are the very people who perverted my words, in order to deliberately create chaos, so they can present themselves as 'saviours'.

Mr. Rider,
Furthermore,
I have absolutely nothing against you, your persona, your work, or your business.
What SOME people here have tried (AND FAILED) to do, is have you believe that I am
attacking you.
Well I am NOTattacking you at all.
Please be assured of that

When I have sufficient funds, I would be happy to purchase a pair of your boots,
because I know from other threads on SF, that your products are worth the money,
and are indeed, an investment.

No one should EVER be subjected the LIBELOUS comments that I have been subjected to here.

I wish you Godspeed sir.
Sincere Regards
..
.
.
.
.
.And Finally......... To those of you who deliberately SCREWED with my words....
Here's some advice for your recovery...

Go thou..and sin no more.

 

[Nexus6]

Sorry My browser glitched and double posted.
Corrected.

Damn...what a waste of my time tonight.

 

[RIDER]

Nexus -

Thanks for the PM. No worries, man - I appreciate the commentary and the chance to speak about the boots. Really, I should have this info on the blog, but always seem to be chasing my tail.......

Anyway, the only objection I have to any post here is the use of the word 'seperation'. Maybe I did not answer in a good way, but I was trying to make the point that no connection exists here, so there is no seperation. I certainly didn't read any ethical questions into any of the posts.....did not think you were attacking me or anything.

Look, anytime you have a human component involved in manufacturing anything, you - by law of Nature - have imperfection. In our business we have a flawed Human Being (me) taking orders/building a line of natural (flawed) materials (leather boots) made by humans (another level of imperfection) working on more or less simple machines and delivering to other flawed people. There is something 'wrong' in every step along the way. If I were to take offense, or get upset, or feel the need to defend myself or my products everytime something goes 'wrong', or an objection is made, I would be in an asylum by now. Also, please understand that I am not claiming someone should accept a defective product just because people are invloved....I receive seconds, like everyone else, that I take out of inventory and sell on Ebay, and are described as such. And, I can miss things. If something is clearly defective with any of my products, I refund, fix...whatever is desired by the client. I have over 5000 pair of shoes under my roof here in Richmond.....Rider Boot, Martegani, Allen Edmonds, Gravati, etc., etc, and I can find something wrong with everyone of them. The only (almost) perfect shoes I have seen were in China; and I have no interest in working with a factory using robotics/computers to make shoes.

So, don't worry...you can throw any question, objection, picture, whatever at me....I'll happily answer/explain as best I can! I certainly will not be a corporate cheerleader for my line...I'll answer everything that comes along straight-up. You don't have to agree with me, but I'll tell it like it is. Honestly, there was a thread over on AAAC where a question was asked about a brands material quality....I found it interesting that an authority figure/member there did not get involved with that thread, since an honest answer (there could have been 10 bullet points that, if written properly would not have hurt the brand and would have opened a very good conversation - something that has really gone away from these Forum's recently) would have been a little uncomfortable, I suppose, for the person to answer. No cheerleading here - I'll save that for the blog. If you have a question, ask me - I'll answer (just not about other brands!).

Thanks again for the PM!

Ron

 

[texas_jack]

Dude, Nexus, time to up the dose.

 

[Nexus6]

Thanks Ron. I was up several hours past my bed time when I composed my last post here. Agree on word 'separation' being inappropriate. It was the fastest word that came to mind to describe what was in the photo. I was extremely tired. I understand 100% what you are saying, no worries.

Thanks for your response here too. Again, sincerest regards.

 

[gdl203]

Originally Posted by Nexus6

[...........................]
And some verbal diarrhea...
[...........................]

Quoted for extreme irony

Again, from the pictures, it seems like there is no "construction issue" with these boots. A little cosmetic irregularity maybe? I guess it could have been classified as a second. But we all buy seconds here from factory shops that have minor cosmetic irregularities without any construction problem. That's the case here. Not seeing the shoe in person and only seeing the shots, I'm not even sure this should be triaged as second.

 

[RIDER]

Originally Posted by Nexus6

Thanks Ron.
I was up several hours past my bed time when I composed my last post here.
Agree on word 'separation' being inappropriate. It was the fastest word that came to mind to describe what was in the photo. I was extremely tired. I understand 100% what you are saying, no worries.

Thanks for your response here too.
Again, sincerest regards.

My pleasure.

 

[polar-lemon]

Originally Posted by gdl203

Quoted for extreme irony

Again, from the pictures, it seems like there is no "construction issue" with these boots. A little cosmetic irregularity maybe? I guess it could have been classified as a second. But we all buy seconds here from factory shops that have minor cosmetic irregularities without any construction problem. That's the case here. Not seeing the shoe in person and only seeing the shots, I'm not even sure this should be triaged as second.

+1, the OP was mainly asking whether or not there was a construction issue. Your post, Nexus, assumes a quality issue prima facie just from the one little cosmetic clue. All anyone is trying to say that this clue is no indicator of a construction problem. To post pics of shoes you found in thrift store and whose construction is obviously inferior to the OPs is much more of a non sequitur than anything anyone else posted.

 

[Douglas]

Holy fuckola the old Colin Powell gif just doesn't have the firepower to stand up to Nexus's post. WTF is that ****?

 

[lawyerdad]

Originally Posted by Nexus6

You'll have to scroll back to see how he perverted the meaning of my post, by adding giant fonts, underlines, and bolding certain words, in a deliberate attempt to distort what I was stating. It is a tired and obvious and well-known lawyer tactic intended to diminish credibility.

.

Nothing like perverting someone's meaning by quoting his exact words, in their entirety . . . I think it was Clarence Darrow who really pioneered the lawyer tactic of adding giant fonts and bolding words with HTML.