Cocktails - An Adventure in Modern Gender Roles

[Italian Cut]

Originally Posted by Piobaire

Every application of a sound to represent an abstract concept is "semantics."

Btw, the original Bond martini was a Vesper, containing both gin and vodka.

Yes, Piobaire.... we know. And? Does that effect what I was saying at all?

The Bond drink everyone knows (read: from any but the most recent movies) is the vodka martini.

As far as semantics, your comment strikes me as pedantic. My meaning should be clear: once the vodka martini almost totally supplants the traditional martini in the common understanding, saying what should be called a martini and what should not be loses all meaning.

Originally Posted by SkinnyGoomba

I drink Gin and tonics, no one has ever considered it un-mainly to my knowledge. Beer makes me uncomfortably full after a few glasses.

Or I drink vodka on the rocks, I've yet to have someone call me a lightweight for that one.

Good man.

 

[Piobaire]

Originally Posted by Italian Cut

Yes, Piobaire.... we know. And? Does that effect what I was saying at all? The Bond drink everyone knows (read: from any but the most recent movies) is the vodka martini. As far as semantics, your comment strikes me as pedantic. My meaning should be clear: once the vodka martini almost totally supplants the traditional martini in the common understanding, saying what should be called a martini and what should not be loses all meaning.
Exactly the point I'm making, yet somehow, I feel we've drawn exactly the opposite conclusion. I'm sure you think you are making intelligent points, the thing is...you're not. P.S. You are all mixed up about the "Bond drink." The Vesper is the original "Bond" cocktail and does not even include vermouth; it uses Lillet. You really do not know much about cocktails it seems. FWIW, I do not claim any great knowledge of mixology either, but my limited grasp seems to be superior to yours.

 

[HgaleK]

Originally Posted by Matt

reading this thread has made me like ecstasy so much more.

You probably do that ***** pure MDMA stuff. It's even named after a girl. My grandfather never would have touched that ****. Real men like him and Brendan Fraser hit that **** cut with 5.34% H and 25.00% M, all the while pounding a Natty ice and bro thumping to MGMT. Go hard or go home!


******* kids these days...

 

[MetroStyles]

Originally Posted by Piobaire

Exactly the point I'm making, yet somehow, I feel we've drawn exactly the opposite conclusion. I'm sure you think you are making intelligent points, the thing is...you're not.

P.S. You are all mixed up about the "Bond drink." The Vesper is the original "Bond" cocktail and does not even include vermouth; it uses Lillet. You really do not know much about cocktails it seems. FWIW, I do not claim any great knowledge of mixology either, but my limited grasp seems to be superior to yours.

No his point is quite intelligent. It's similar to someone using the word "******" to describe a homosexual. You COULD say "no, actually a ****** is either a traditional pork dish or a bundle of sticks, but certainly not a homosexual" but you would be wrong. Because in the grand scheme of things, the common usage of a word is as important if not more important than the original usage of it.

You can argue with that all you want, but you will just come off like a mafoo. Proceed.

 

[grimslade]

Metro, you big bundle of sticks you.

 

[Piobaire]

Originally Posted by MetroStyles

No his point is quite intelligent. It's similar to someone using the word "******" to describe a homosexual. You COULD say "no, actually a ****** is either a traditional pork dish or a bundle of sticks, but certainly not a homosexual" but you would be wrong. Because in the grand scheme of things, the common usage of a word is as important if not more important than the original usage of it.

You can argue with that all you want, but you will just come off like a mafoo. Proceed.

Wow, never seen you so invested in a thread. Interesting.

You're misreading his point. Let's re-read his last statement:

My meaning should be clear: once the vodka martini almost totally supplants the traditional martini in the common understanding, saying what should be called a martini and what should not be loses all meaning.

What is and is not a martini is now meaningless. So now we have a word, "martini," that he is saying has become meaningless in regards to the content of the drink, in common use. I would agree with that, which is to say, the word has been so degraded you never know what's going to show up in your glass, including all kinds of things such as olive brine. Far from dispelling my point, it strengthens it.

Also, he is 100% factually incorrect concering the "Bond" martini. He said that in all but the last few movies...incorrect. That one is not open to parsing, it either is or is not true...and it is not true.

Edit: Oh, at what point should I start returning the name calling? Just need a pointer on that.

 

[christinedaae]

is crown and coke a men's drink? (seriously, curious)

 

[Italian Cut]

Originally Posted by Piobaire

Also, he is 100% factually incorrect concering the "Bond" martini. He said that in all but the last few movies...incorrect.

Pay attention to the wording. Read it again:

The Bond drink everyone knows (read: from any but the most recent movies) is the vodka martini.

People who know about Bond's origins know the Vesper is the original bond drink, featured in the book Casino Royale. But the Bond drink everyone knows and refers to is obviously the Vodka Martini. Why?

Because its featured prominently in just about every Bond movie except the most recent ones, from Sean Connery to Pierce Brosnin, and every Bond in between.

Originally Posted by Piobaire

What is and is not a martini is now meaningless. So now we have a word, "martini," that he is saying has become meaningless in regards to the content of the drink, in common use. I would agree with that, which is to say, the word has been so degraded you never know what's going to show up in your glass, including all kinds of things such as olive brine. Far from dispelling my point, it strengthens it.


How so? You were trying to make the point that the original Martini is the only "real" martini:

Martini is not a martini, unless you use gin.

And then once I make my point (that nowadays the distinction you are making, though correct, is meaningless in the common sense), you backpedal and say that this is what you meant all along.

...

 

[Piobaire]

Originally Posted by Italian Cut

Pay attention to the wording. Read it again:



People who know about Bond's origins know the Vesper is the original bond drink, featured in the book Casino Royale. But the Bond drink everyone knows and refers to is obviously the Vodka Martini. Why?

Because its featured prominently in just about every Bond movie except the most recent ones, from Sean Connery to Pierce Brosnin, and every Bond in between.



How so? You were trying to make the point that the original Martini is the only "real" martini:



And then once I make my point (that nowadays the distinction you are making, though correct, is meaningless in the common sense), you backpedal and say that this is what you meant all along.

...

You added in the bolded just now. You pay attention and re-read your own statement that you quoted. The only mention of movies was that we were not to include the last few ones. You have ad hoc'ed into this. Of course, it's quite possible you did not realize about the books and are now covering up after some Google-foo on the Vesper.

Further, I am not backpedaling, I'm remaining constant. Nice projection. My point is that there is only one drink, properly referred to as the martini, and that the use of the word "martini" has been so bastardized that it has become nearly meaningless to the uniformed.

I feel like Manton.

 

[MetroStyles]

Originally Posted by Piobaire

Further, I am not backpedaling, I'm remaining constant. Nice projection. My point is that there is only one drink, properly referred to as the martini, and that the use of the word "martini" has been so bastardized that it has become nearly meaningless to the uniformed.

Practically speaking it is meaningless to anyone that uses an unknown bartender.

Look, you are taking a traditional and purist view, we are taking a practical/common usage view. That's the only difference. I agree with you that if someone put a gun to my head and said how do you make a martini, I would start with gin and not vodka.

Oh, and calling you mafoo is not name-calling. It is a compliment! Were you implying something else about mafoo?

 

[Piobaire]

Originally Posted by MetroStyles

Practically speaking it is meaningless to anyone that uses an unknown bartender.

Look, you are taking a traditional and purist view, we are taking a practical/common usage view. That's the only difference. I agree with you that if someone put a gun to my head and said how do you make a martini, I would start with gin and not vodka.

Oh, and calling you mafoo is not name-calling. It is a compliment! Were you implying something else about mafoo?

You earlier called me a "high and mighty gramps." While I don't disagree with that, it's still name calling.

Let's leave it at this. We're both agreeing to the same points, I'm just taking umbrage at the common (mis)use of the word. I just figured, in a threak about cocktails, we'd be a little more purist of view.

 

[tomgirl]

Originally Posted by MetroStyles

No his point is quite intelligent. It's similar to someone using the word "******" to describe a homosexual. You COULD say "no, actually a ****** is either a traditional pork dish or a bundle of sticks, but certainly not a homosexual" but you would be wrong. Because in the grand scheme of things, the common usage of a word is as important if not more important than the original usage of it.

You can argue with that all you want, but you will just come off like a mafoo. Proceed.

This made me LOL.

 

[Italian Cut]

Wow. Now I'm giving lessons in English here.

The statement "From any but the most recent movies" does not mean (and cannot mean, due to the sentence construction) "From anyTHING but the most recent movies" it means "From any MOVIES but the most recent movies," but because that statement is repetitive (and we like to avoid repetition in English sentences) we say "from any but the most recent movies." This is a fairly common English convention, so I'm unsure as to why it confused you. If you are not a native English-speaker, then I understand and apologize.

Now that we've got the English lesson out of the way (sidestepping, for the sake of polite discussion, your ignorant comments about "google-fu"), back to the main point.

My point is that there is only one drink, properly referred to as the martini, and that the use of the word "martini" has been so bastardized that it has become nearly meaningless to the uniformed.

Right. But there isnt "only one drink, properly referred to as the martini" anymore, and thats the point.

Once the use of the word "martini" has become as bastardized as we agree it has been, in order for the use of the word to mean anything at all (which is the point of language, for it to be useful in conveying specific ideas) we have to use the term for what it means now, and not what it used to mean.

I know it may go against your sensibilities (and cause well-deserved umbrage), but once you realize that the term "martini" is now included in the names of a whole list of cocktails the world over, you must use the modern meaning if you want to convey anything useful when you use the term "martini," much less order one in a bar.

Hence, why you have to ask for a "Gin Martini" if you want the original.



And by the way,
I read Casino Royale when I was a kid, so to me, the Vesper and the Vodka Martini are equally Bond drinks. But obviously, to most people, the latter is more the case, not merely in the sense that they've had more exposure to Bond with Vodka Martinis, but also in the sense that if you actually want a Vesper, you have to adjust the mix because Kina Lillet hasn't been the Lillet of Fleming's day since 1987 (you have to add bitters), and Tanqueray is the better option for the gin since Gordon's changed their recipe some time ago as well. So even if you wanted to emulate Bond by drinking a Vesper, you would have to change the mix to make it taste anything like the Vesper Fleming would have tasted, and thats more effort than most Bond aficionados are willing to expend.

 

[Piobaire]

^

 

[Italian Cut]

I'm glad you agree, and see the humor in the discussion.

Now we can get back to talking about cocktails and gender roles