Buying shoes for your arch size?

[Stemo79]

Anything that makes you think or feel uncomfortable is bound to tiresome to people like you. Check the time signatures between my last response to chogall and his renewing the argument. Three weeks...renewing a disagreement long since gone stale, who's stirring what? Jumping in with nonconstructive snark entirely unrelated to the subject being discussed...sound like bone fide **** to me. But then the details that make up reality is not something you seem to respect.

You ask why I responded to him ...the simple answer is because in just the same way that you and a few others take offense at me answering valid questions with the full weight of first hand experience and certain knowledge (none of which you can muster for yourselves), I take offense at pretense. At people presuming to give advice to others with sincere questions when they haven't earned the right to give advice esp. bogus advice--such as yours about taking responsibility.

I take offense at you pretending to be interested in these discussions for any substantive reason. That's your MO. Even when I'm taking offense at poseurs, I am conscious of the subject at hand and addressing it. What objective did your post serve? You didn't add anything constructive to the discussion about fitting...it's been my experience that you seldom do. You just jumped in because you wanted a piece of the action. It is my suspicion that the reason for that is that you don't have anything constructive to say. At least you're honest in your ignorance. That's a step in the right direction.

It's offensive to see people damn rationality and objectivity in what seems a single minded quest to make everybody in the world stupid. In their quest to pretend to knowledge and expertise and authority they have not earned.

Evil and stupidity will triumph...everything points to it. We can only hope to hold it at bay for a little while, only hope to shine a small light into a few dark corners.

You see your problem is that you dont understand why people have a problem with you, or are willing to concede that anything you do is wrong, I have absolutely no qualms with you giving advice, knowledge and sharing your expertise in fact I actually do respect the knowledge you have and do find it helpful, but it's very hard to respect "you" when you have to constantly separate the slights of character, snide insults, mock arrogance and condescension splattered all over your posts.

If you feel that I do not add anything to this site then that's your opinion, it's wrong but you're entitled to it, I know that I have helped several people on different threads here with facts I know about footwear. Not that I should have to justify myself to you but I have actually worked with RTW shoes for over 10 years, I have fit people up in person and have regular customers who solely shop with me because of me. Now I dont say anything about this because I dont like to brag, after 10 years I know that there are many things to learn with shoes and many gaps in my knowledge but I would never knowingly try to state something as fact that wasn't, however I do offer things up for theoretical discussion.

I am not a chemist, I am not a podiatrist, I am not a shoe maker, I do not tan leathers but I have some knowledge which has merit so for you to label me and others as e-warriors is not only inaccurate it shows your own ignorance and unwillingness to hear anyone else opinion.

I understand now though that trying to discuss anything with you is a pointless task. I wish you well in your business and Im sure you make very nice shoes.

 

[bdavro23]

My remark is not a variation of "it doesn't matter", its a simple allusion to the fact that i'm tired of reading you **** stir, like dredging up the argument on the shoe care thread, then again i'm not surprised you don't understand what i'm saying as you couldn't seem to understand the metaphor about ivory towers.

Ben Parker said "with great power comes great responsibility" so please check your own behaviour and attitude before addressing others.

A few observations:

I'm sorry you are tired of reading. I know that reading is hard for some people, but conveniently, you are able to go away, not visit this site anymore, and not suffer from the strain of trying to comprehend those pesky words and sentences.

That you feel you are in any position to offer anything of value to anyone in this or any other thread shows your misguided sense of entitlement.

It isnt that people dont understand what you are saying, its that you dont like that people point out the idiocy of your statements.

When admonishing people about their behavior and attitude, its probably best if the person doing the admonishing isnt acting like a petulant child. Its also helpful it said person has even a remote clue as to what they are talking about (see observation 2 above).

Best regards and bon voyage!

 

[Stemo79]

A few observations:

I'm sorry you are tired of reading. I know that reading is hard for some people, but conveniently, you are able to go away, not visit this site anymore, and not suffer from the strain of trying to comprehend those pesky words and sentences.

That you feel you are in any position to offer anything of value to anyone in this or any other thread shows your misguided sense of entitlement.

It isnt that people dont understand what you are saying, its that you dont like that people point out the idiocy of your statements.

When admonishing people about their behavior and attitude, its probably best if the person doing the admonishing isnt acting like a petulant child. Its also helpful it said person has even a remote clue as to what they are talking about (see observation 2 above).

Best regards and bon voyage!

Says DWF's lapdog, don't you have a toilet to lick clean?

 

[DWFII]



Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!

You see your problem is that you dont understand why people have a problem with you, or are willing to concede that anything you do is wrong, I have absolutely no qualms with you giving advice, knowledge and sharing your expertise in fact I actually do respect the knowledge you have and do find it helpful, but it's very hard to respect "you" when you have to constantly separate the slights of character, snide insults, mock arrogance and condescension splattered all over your posts. 

If you feel that I do not add anything to this site then that's your opinion, it's wrong but you're entitled to it, I know that I have helped several people on different threads here with facts I know about footwear. Not that I should have to justify myself to you but I have actually worked with RTW shoes for over 10 years, I have fit people up in person and have regular customers who solely shop with me because of me. Now I dont say anything about this because I dont like to brag, after 10 years I know that there are many things to learn with shoes and many gaps in my knowledge but I would never knowingly try to state something as fact that wasn't, however I do offer things up for theoretical discussion.

I am not a chemist, I am not a podiatrist, I am not a shoe maker, I do not tan leathers but I have some knowledge which has merit so for you to label me and others as e-warriors is not only inaccurate it shows your own ignorance and unwillingness to hear anyone else opinion.

I understand now though that trying to discuss anything with you is a pointless task. I wish you well in your business and Im sure you make very nice shoes.

You see your problem is that you lose focus... I don't express my irritation for no reason-- as you did in this thread...again, entirely because you wanted a piece of the action and/or felt left out.

As I pointedly said, I get irritated at people who pretend. And who jump in on conversations with meaningless and bogus gobbledy-**** and disrespect and then get offended when called on it. And it's not even disrespect of me personally that irritates me. It's disrespect of all those who have gone before and for the knowledge itself.

What's more, I don't claim...and never have...any particular expertise in any subject other than those I have long term, first-hand, in-depth experience with. If you were paying any attention to reality you would know and acknowledge that I often say "I don't know." Unheard of !! esp. among people who salve their egos by pretending to knowledge they don't have. Or a legitimacy they haven't earned.

Everyone can have an opinion but when you get so full of yourself that you think your opinions take precedence over hard won objective knowledge, well, someone once said "Opinions are like assholes--everyone has one but they're not all worth sniffing."

And for the record...I know there are folks like you who resent expertise in any form. There are people here who dislike me intensely for that very reason. But I am an old man and I don't care. Also for the record, there are many...maybe even many more...who do like me and my straight-forward, no bullshit approach. Too bad for you and folks like you.

My business is not at issue here. I don't promote it nor seek more. I am all but retired. I post for perhaps stubbornly naive reasons of wanting to help people. I don't have to take any crap for doing it.

edited for punctuation and clarity

--

 

[DWFII]



Says DWF's lapdog, don't you have a toilet to lick clean?

Good example of how to make yourself irrelevant.

And prove yourself a dick.

It's a role you play so well. Probably because there's no pretense involved.

But you've had lots of practice, haven't you?

 

[bdavro23]

Says DWF's lapdog, don't you have a toilet to lick clean?

No, I dont. Why would I want to do that? Why would anyone want to do that? Is that a "thing" for you, licking toilets? Thats kind of gross, but your perversions are your own and I wont judge you as a person because of them.

I do hope you realize though, that it isnt very sanitary and you may want to find a new hobby...

 

[DWFII]

Enough.

I'm done here. Like sullen wolverines (better known as skunk bears) you and chogall have defiled every valuable thing that could have come out of this thread.

It reminds me of another old saying--"arguing with teenagers (even if only teenagers in mind) is like mud wrestling with a pig---everyone gets dirty and the pig likes it."

 

[RIDER]



Arch fit is really secondary; it could affect the long term foot health but it's not going to cause any short term pain.

Whats the point of getting great arch fit when the toe box is too short or too long? Or there's not enough vamp space?

Toe box width/length and vanp space are way more important and affects directly the wearability of the shoes.

Just popped in to look around and caught this. Not going to read the entire thread as it looks to be another pissing battle mostly, but - just so maybe someone learning from afar will notice - this comment could not be more wrong.

Arch (heel-to-ball) is the most critical measure to long term foot health, not to mention proper fit.

Most foot problems are caused by poor fitting shoes.....the amount of people who still sit and pinch and pull at the toes and declare 'these are too long' amazes me - even after they complain (and ask for advice) about foot pain and how to solve it.

 

[chogall]



Says the pretend bespoke maker. Says the guy who damns rationality and objectivity. Says the one who gets all his information from visiting shoe factories or parroting other people on the Internet.

You're a regular fountain of darkness in a world of light.

Do you take specifically H-B measurements? Or just outlines of feet with circumferences at different areas?

Emotional responses are always welcomed.

 

[chogall]



Just popped in to look around and caught this. Not going to read the entire thread as it looks to be another pissing battle mostly, but - just so maybe someone learning from afar will notice - this comment could not be more wrong.

Arch (heel-to-ball) is the most critical measure to long term foot health, not to mention proper fit.

Most foot problems are caused by poor fitting shoes.....the amount of people who still sit and pinch and pull at the toes and declare 'these are too long' amazes me - even after they complain (and ask for advice) about foot pain and how to solve it.

What about my pair of very good arch fit and good H-B length shoes that is too short at the toe? I dont know what damage it could prevent in the long term, but it's too short and will kill my feet after walking a mile in it.

Again, I am not denying the importance of H-B fit, but IMO anything that causes short term pain should be avoided or rectified.

 

[DWFII]



Do you take specifically H-B measurements? Or just outlines of feet with circumferences at different areas?

Emotional responses are always welcomed.

Emotions are good ...like the emotion that allows you to say "Rationality and objectivity be damned."

I guess it depends on whose ox is being gored.

Yes, I very specifically take a heel to ball measurement...which you would have/could have known if you'd read the words that you are so vociferously contesting. But that might indicate that you were really and truly as interested in learning as you so flippantly assert.

but - just so maybe someone learning from afar will notice - [COLOR=FF0000]this comment could not be more wrong.[/COLOR]

Arch (heel-to-ball) is the most critical measure to long term foot health, not to mention proper fit.

Most foot problems are caused by poor fitting shoes.....the amount of people who still sit and pinch and pull at the toes and declare 'these are too long' amazes me - even after they complain (and ask for advice) about foot pain and how to solve it.

What about my pair of very good arch fit and good H-B length shoes that is too short at the toe? I dont know what damage it could prevent in the long term, but it's too short and will kill my feet after walking a mile in it.

Again, I am not denying the importance of H-B fit, but IMO anything that causes short term pain should be avoided or rectified.

That's just plain revisionist BS. You very specifically have denied the importance of HB. You did so in the remarks that Rider quoted.

For that matter the shoes you say have a good fitting arch and HB....are these bespoke? Were you measured specifically for heel to ball? Or did you just settle into them and decide unilaterally that they fit good in the arch?

And even if they are bespoke and you were measured for the HB, if the toes are cramped, there are most likely other reasons and foremost among them is a mistake or lack of understanding on the part of the maker (it could even be something you are not telling us). In any case, it is irrational to tar all other makers and the advice of other very competent and knowledgeable makers with the same brush.

Rider is correct. And you've now had three professional shoemakers, with decades of hands-on experience, tell you the exact same thing.

I guess you, in your infinite wisdom know better...know better enough to advise others.

--

 

[shoefan]



What about my pair of very good arch fit and good H-B length shoes that is too short at the toe? I dont know what damage it could prevent in the long term, but it's too short and will kill my feet after walking a mile in it.

Again, I am not denying the importance of H-B fit, but IMO anything that causes short term pain should be avoided or rectified.

Apparently, that shoe last does not work for you. Rather than choosing a different size from the same maker/last, such that you have sufficient toe room but too long a HB, perhaps you should search for a different maker and/or last that is appropriate for your feet.

Seems to me you are arguing about which is the lesser of two evils. Why not just avoid both evils?

Yes, if you are dead set on a given maker and last, I guess you'll have to choose which error/misfit is worse. But, they are both errors.

HB is, as previously stated, the starting point for a correct fit -- not the only thing that determines a correct fit. To argue to the contrary is simply wrong. Now, in RTW, by definition, fit is unlikely to be perfect, but in the context of this discussion I would look for a last with:

• A. Correct heel to ball
• B. Adequate toe room, both in length and in width/circumference around the toes

In the old days, shoe salesmen were reasonably well trained and knew their products, so they knew which makers and lasts best fit which types of feet. Alas, in general those days are long gone.

If you are choosing between too long a HB and a correct HB with inadequate toe room, you have a mis-fit either way. Choose your poison.

This is, at the end of the day, a silly argument -- which misfit is worse for someones feet?

 

[DWFII]

^ +1

Why is it necessary for someone like you...who has the credentials and the patience (the patience of youth?)... to reach out and explain logically, rationally, objectively, the same point to the same person over and over again? You made many of the same points on page three of this discussion and I pointed out that I had made many of those same points earlier...in post 17 and post 22.

I suspect this person doesn't want to hear it, doesn't want to learn and only continues to quibble because he has a "rat gnawing at his guts" and is looking for the kind of emotional release that can only be found in argument and trolling.

--

 

[chogall]

Apparently, that shoe last does not work for you. Rather than choosing a different size from the same maker/last, such that you have sufficient toe room but too long a HB, perhaps you should search for a different maker and/or last that is appropriate for your feet.

Seems to me you are arguing about which is the lesser of two evils. Why not just avoid both evils?

Yes, if you are dead set on a given maker and last, I guess you'll have to choose which error/misfit is worse. But, they are both errors.

HB is, as previously stated, the starting point for a correct fit -- not the only thing that determines a correct fit. To argue to the contrary is simply wrong. Now, in RTW, by definition, fit is unlikely to be perfect, but in the context of this discussion I would look for a last with:

• A. Correct heel to ball
• B. Adequate toe room, both in length and in width/circumference around the toes

In the old days, shoe salesmen were reasonably well trained and knew their products, so they knew which makers and lasts best fit which types of feet. Alas, in general those days are long gone.

If you are choosing between too long a HB and a correct HB with inadequate toe room, you have a mis-fit either way. Choose your poison.

This is, at the end of the day, a silly argument -- which misfit is worse for someones feet?

The unfortunate fact is that it was on an adjusted fitted last based on the fitter's recommendation.

It makes perfect sense to avoid both evils. Just sometimes that is not an available option due to accessibility, the lack of width options, or the trend of narrow sleek pretty shoes. Podiatrists and Orthotists rejoice!

 

[bengal-stripe]

After ‘shoefan’ has brought some long needed sanity and rationality back to the topic (thanks, L), let’s put all the hysteria (from either side) aside and let’s examine what we are actually talking about (in terms of measurements).

To have a last ½ size smaller (or larger) in length is one sixth of an inch (or just over 4 mm). The Heel-Ball measurement is about ¾ of the total last length. Which means the HB measurement will increase/decrease by 3 mm (⅛”) if you go ½ size up or down with a given last. Accounting for ‘operator’s bias’, two last/shoemakers, measuring the same foot, are quite likely, to come up with a measurement that differs by ⅛ of an inch. Any last made by two different people, but for the same customer, will have differences in measurements and proportions. This is partly due to different ideas how a ‘well-fitting’ last ought to be like (based on training), operator’s bias and, of course, operator’s mistakes or insensitivity to the customer’s needs.

If those discrepancies are within plus/minus ⅛”, to all intents and purposes you can call both lasts identical. If HB measurement is out by two inches it is a serious problem and is likely to be detrimental to long-term health. But it is unlikely to happen, as nobody would get his foot into a shoe like that. Whether a difference of ⅛”, either in HB measurement or total length of the last makes a significant difference to comfort (let alone foot-health in 30 or more years down the road), I rather doubt.

Everything in life is a question of degrees.