Business Dressing by Country - India

[aj_del]

Rechecked, it is only 30% silk, so I am only 30% hypocrite

 

[IndianBoyz]

I think their designs look very classical, I might snag one.

 

[Gdot]

Originally Posted by asturiano

This is from 2 years back in Sharjah. One of the emirates that form the UAE. http://gulfnews.com/news/gulf/uae/cr...ories-1.502149

Sharjah police enforce old law against men wearing accessories

CID men confiscate residents' bracelets, necklaces and earrings. A senior CID official told Gulf News that police are implementing an eight-year-old decency law.
By Bassma Al Jandaly, Staff Reporter
Published: 22:45 July 21, 2009

Sharjah: Thirteen-year-old Mohammad was with a group of friends in Al Qasba area when he was reportedly approached by a police officer and taken to the police headquarters. His silver necklace had to go.

Another resident, Jeril Jaison Varghese, says he was in front of the Multiplex in Mega Mall to watch a movie when a CID officer asked him for his identification.

"I was taken to the Sharjah Police office inside the mall by a security guy from the mall. My silver bracelet was confiscated by the CID," he said.

When Varghese asked why his bracelet was being taken away, he says, police said men are not allowed to wear bracelets or any fashion accessories in Sharjah malls even if it is silver and not gold.

"When did this rule come into being? There was no public notification and no posters in the mall notifying people of this rule," Varghese said. Another resident said on Saturday CID confiscated his friend's silver bracelet while they were in a mall.

"Is there a rule in Sharjah that authorises the CID to confiscate fashion accessories other than gold from residents and their children from malls?" asked Aji Alexander.

A Mexican mother who recently shifted to the UAE and is now living in Sharjah said her 14-year-old son was scared when he was stopped by police who shouted at him for wearing diamond earrings.

"Police were rude... We have no clue that such things are not allowed here," the mother said. "I am not allowing my son to go to Al Qasba again. My son is a very decent and polite boy," she said.

"If people are not offending the laws of the country and are not acting like women by wearing such accessories so why are police taking such action?" she asked.

Mohammad from Sudan said his 18-year old nephew who came from Abu Dhabi to visit his grandmother in Sharjah was taken last week to the headquarters for wearing a silver necklace.

"The boy was afraid. He was standing in front of his grandmother's house when police took him to the CID. After three hours he contacted us," said Mohammad. Residents said Sharjah authorities should inform people who wish to come here that men must not wear fashion accessories.

"Tourist companies should inform the public. Information booklets should be handed to people at the country's entry points. They should advertise that in all malls and entertainment areas such as Al Qasba which we believe are safe places for our children to spend time," said a resident.

"We are aware of the decency law in Sharjah, but wearing silver bracelets, necklaces, or even earrings in a decent way is not against the law," said a resident.

A senior CID official told Gulf News that police are implementing an eight-year-old decency law.

"Men are not allowed to wear such accessories. Everybody is aware of that," he said. "We are informing people through the media and people should be aware of that," he said.

Islam forbids men from wearing gold and silk.


Wow,

I've been going back and forth to Dubai for years and didn't know about the ban on silk. So.......even though you see business men with silk ties everywhere I will now make sure that I wear cotton, linen, cashmere ties when in Dubai.

I did know about jewelry.

Just because you CAN get away with breaking the rules when you are a visitor doesn't mean that you SHOULD.

I've started a new thread called 'Business Dressing by Country - United Arab Emirates' and posted your article there.

Thank you!

 

[IndianBoyz]

..

 

[PipersSon]

Originally Posted by IndianBoyz

Sure it is "in our blood". In fact, the I see an increasing interest in bespoke garments over there even when I'm based in Europe. Thomas Mahon recently started a project in South India. Besides there's many good to average Indian tailors abroad. Think in terms of ex-Savile Row, Ravi Tailor to Hemrajani and for example the tailoring community in HK.

I do not deny that things are changing rapidly, and individuals have begun to excel. But we lack the tradition of generations of craftsmen who make high quality western clothes - trousers, sports coats, etc. We lack 'centers of excellence', places with rich traditions of making western clothing.

Why else would people struggle to name 2 or 3 good bespoke tailors in all of India?
The evidence lies in standards of tailoring. Try getting a shirt or a trouser made in Lucknow or Mumbai or and you will see that the overall quality is bad to indifferent. But ask the same tailor to make an achkan or sherwani, or even a Nehru jacket and likely as not they will do a great job - because making these is in "their blood". Similarly we have chikan cloth and clothes in Lucknow for example, and Varanasi silks, etc.

It's not the fault of Indian tailors either because, except in the past few decades, there has been a lack of volume demand for western clothing. When do you think Indians started to 'get into' western clothes? I know from anecdotal evidence that right up to the 1960s, a western pant and shirt was a symbol of elitism that few could avail of outside of the big cities. My grandfather would cuss out his sons who wanted to wear trousers as soon as they went to college - wear your bloody pajamas he would tell them!

Obviously this has changed in the 70s and beyond. But not so much that excellent tailoring is an easily available indigenous option. We will get there as your examples of Indian tailors seem suggest, but slowly, slowly.

 

[globetrotter]

Originally Posted by PipersSon

I do not deny that things are changing rapidly, and individuals have begun to excel. But we lack the tradition of generations of craftsmen who make high quality western clothes - trousers, sports coats, etc. We lack 'centers of excellence', places with rich traditions of making western clothing.

Why else would people struggle to name 2 or 3 good bespoke tailors in all of India?
The evidence lies in standards of tailoring. Try getting a shirt or a trouser made in Lucknow or Mumbai or and you will see that the overall quality is bad to indifferent. But ask the same tailor to make an achkan or sherwani, or even a Nehru jacket and likely as not they will do a great job - because making these is in "their blood". Similarly we have chikan cloth and clothes in Lucknow for example, and Varanasi silks, etc.

It's not the fault of Indian tailors either because, except in the past few decades, there has been a lack of volume demand for western clothing. When do you think Indians started to 'get into' western clothes? I know from anecdotal evidence that right up to the 1960s, a western pant and shirt was a symbol of elitism that few could avail of outside of the big cities. My grandfather would cuss out his sons who wanted to wear trousers as soon as they went to college - wear your bloody pajamas he would tell them!

Obviously this has changed in the 70s and beyond. But not so much that excellent tailoring is an easily available indigenous option. We will get there as your examples of Indian tailors seem suggest, but slowly, slowly.

hmmmmm.... I'm not all the sure. historically speaking, affordable fabric wasn't available in India before western tailoring was. before the british came to india, cloth was extremly expensive, and only the rich could afford tailored clothing. so there have been tailors in india making western style clothes about as long as there have been tailors in india.

on top of that, you do have a few shops that started out with people who apprenticed in England and on the Row. those are the best, but probably thousands of people over the past 100 years have learned to tailor clothing from those shops.

another interesting point - you have subcontinent tailors all over asia, so they must be doing something right.

 

[PipersSon]

Originally Posted by globetrotter

hmmmmm.... I'm not all the sure. historically speaking, affordable fabric wasn't available in India before western tailoring was. before the british came to india, cloth was extremly expensive, and only the rich could afford tailored clothing.
In fact India was a global exporter of fabrics from hundreds (even more) of years ago. Of all the arts and crafts in India, traditional handloom textiles are the oldest. Some of the main reasons the British came to India- our spices and our textiles. As for tailoring: Look up 'Indian weaving'. We have had a grand tradition of handlooms in every village. Some examples: Madras checks, ikats (Andhra), tie and dye (Rajasthan) brocades from Banaras, jacquards form Uttar Pradesh. Daccai from West Bengal, and phulkari from Punjab. Kashmiri weavers of Pashminas. The Surat tanchoi techniques of satin weaving. Obviously not everyone could afford all of these. But my limited reading of Indian history suggests there was a market for everyone. Our local tradition of clothing and weaving are as rich as any in the world. But these have suffered in the last few hundred years because of an apparent inability to effectively survive industrialization.

Originally Posted by globetrotter

so there have been tailors in india making western style clothes about as long as there have been tailors in india.
Given our strong history in textiles, not really.

Originally Posted by globetrotter

........ another interesting point - you have subcontinent tailors all over asia, so they must be doing something right.
I agree. But my point is that these are individual examples. For a variety of reasons, high quality western style bespoke tailoring is not yet a 'tradition' in India.

 

[globetrotter]

Originally Posted by PipersSon

In fact India was a global exporter of fabrics from hundreds (even more) of years ago. Of all the arts and crafts in India, traditional handloom textiles are the oldest.

Some of the main reasons the British came to India- our spices and our textiles.

As for tailoring: Look up 'Indian weaving'. We have had a grand tradition of handlooms in every village. Some examples:

Madras checks, ikats (Andhra), tie and dye (Rajasthan) brocades from Banaras, jacquards form Uttar Pradesh. Daccai from West Bengal, and phulkari from Punjab. Kashmiri weavers of Pashminas. The Surat tanchoi techniques of satin weaving.

Obviously not everyone could afford all of these. But my limited reading of Indian history suggests there was a market for everyone.

Our local tradition of clothing and weaving are as rich as any in the world. But these have suffered in the last few hundred years because of an apparent inability to effectively survive industrialization.



Given our strong history in textiles, not really.



I agree. But my point is that these are individual examples. For a variety of reasons, high quality western style bespoke tailoring is not yet a 'tradition' in India.

sorry, I don't really want to get into an arugment about history, but there is a reason that within a few years of the british getting to india everyone was wearing british made fabrics. I know that these issues get emotional, and I have no intention of getting sucked into an argument about it. hard to argue with historical facts and economics. if india was producing cheap fabric, they wouldn't need to buy it from halfway around the world, would they?

 

[Metlin]

Originally Posted by globetrotter

sorry, I don't really want to get into an arugment about history, but there is a reason that within a few years of the british getting to india everyone was wearing british made fabrics. I know that these issues get emotional, and I have no intention of getting sucked into an argument about it. hard to argue with historical facts and economics. if india was producing cheap fabric, they wouldn't need to buy it from halfway around the world, would they?

I'm not disagreeing with you, but isn't that the whole point of colonialization through industrialized trade? Take raw material from colony and mass produce finished products faster and cheaper than the artisans, and sell said product to colony. This effectively kills the local artisans, and the colony becomes beholden to the industrial power. The East India Company arrived to trade in spices and textiles, and this pattern can be seen across all the colonial powers across the world.

 

[aj_del]

Exactly, was just about to say that. You put it better

 

[aj_del]

But I guess Indian companies are returning the favour. Reid & Taylor, hickey Freeman etc

 

[PipersSon]

If you do not want to debate, so be it. But IMHO there a few things wrong in what you've said, so I will briefly respond.

Originally Posted by globetrotter

but there is a reason that within a few years of the british getting to india everyone was wearing british made fabrics.
I am not sure what you mean by 'everyone' and 'within a few years' - if you are being literal, your claims are wrong. If not, then what Metlin said. But all this is not germane to my basic contention vis a vis this thread- traditions of western bespoke tailoring in India.

 

[globetrotter]

Originally Posted by Metlin

I'm not disagreeing with you, but isn't that the whole point of colonialization through industrialized trade? Take raw material from colony and mass produce finished products faster and cheaper than the artisans, and sell said product to colony. This effectively kills the local artisans, and the colony becomes beholden to the industrial power. The East India Company arrived to trade in spices and textiles, and this pattern can be seen across all the colonial powers across the world.

yes, that is exactly the whole point of industrailed trade colonialization. I am not saying it is a good thing, but I am saying it is a historical fact that before the mid -19th century cloth was very expensive in india, and after the british came fabric was affordable. yes, indians made very nice cloth for ever, but a tiny fraction of people could afford to buy any amount of it.

 

[globetrotter]

Originally Posted by PipersSon

If you do not want to debate, so be it. But IMHO there a few things wrong in what you've said, so I will briefly respond.



I am not sure what you mean by 'everyone' and 'within a few years' - if you are being literal, your claims are wrong. If not, then what Metlin said.

But all this is not germane to my basic contention vis a vis this thread- traditions of western bespoke tailoring in India.

if british made textiles didn't take over the market rapidly and pretty much totally then why would homemade textiles become such an important part of the indian independence movement, and even become part of the flag? the british weren't out there with guns making people buy there textiles. indians bought them because they were much, much cheaper than hand made textiles.

 

[PipersSon]

Originally Posted by globetrotter

if british made textiles didn't take over the market rapidly and pretty much totally then why would homemade textiles become such an important part of the indian independence movement, and even become part of the flag? the british weren't out there with guns making people buy there textiles. indians bought them because they were much, much cheaper than hand made textiles.

You said you did not want to get into a historical debate; I'm assuming you do now, so I will continue the discussion.

You are creating strawmen. You ask the question:

if british made textiles didn't take over the market rapidly and pretty much totally then why would homemade textiles become such an important part of the indian independence movement, and even become part of the flag?

Where did I say that they did not take over the market rapidly - if a few decades is 'rapid'? Indeed they did.

And if you read the history of the Indian Independence movement - I'd recommend Bikram Chandra - home made textiles was an emotive issue precisely because of the belief that the British had destroyed the local industry and not only because their technology was superior (see my second to last paragraph).

You had earlier asked:

hard to argue with historical facts and economics. if india was producing cheap fabric, they wouldn't need to buy it from halfway around the world, would they?

My answer lies in your question- how was India then a famous exporter of textiles for centuries before that? Because it was then producing high quality and cheap fabrics.

The fundamental basis for why the East India Company came to India was that there were cheap and high quality products available that it could resell elsewhere.

You seem to claim that even in those years India was not producing cheap clothes for her masses. If that is what you claim, you're wrong, based on just the the extensive history of our local artisans.

It was in the 19th and 20th centuries that the tables turned - based on superior technologies, but not just on superior technologies alone. Trade barriers in the form of tariffs, military supremacy being used to enforce a favorable advantage, local artisans being restricted in what they do do, and outright thuggery - all played their part.

Nowhere do I claim that the British did not have superior industrial technology, or that they bought measurable benefits to India, in this and other fields. But a bit of perspective is needed.