Authenticity

[radicaldog]

By your logic, non-western people should stop wearing western clothes.

...but then I remembered how brainlets like you only apply this to white people.

Colonialism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[upsett1_spaghett1]

By your logic, non-western people should stop wearing western clothes.

...but then I remembered how brainlets like you only apply this to white people.

This is truly unhelpful commentary in a place where people are attempting to have honest discourse about a topic that can be very hard to navigate with grace.

 

[upsett1_spaghett1]

I enjoyed Susan Scafidi's article on cultural appropriation. She also wrote a book called Who Owns Culture, which is a fleshed out version of this article.

When Native American Appropriation Is Appropriate

Culture is fluid, and today’s taboo may be tomorrow’s trend.

time.com

An excerpt:

"Fashion is notorious for ransacking the world’s closets in search of inspiration, but designers are no more culturally acquisitive than chefs who prepare fusion cuisine, musicians in search of a world beat, or any of us who pepper our conversations with foreign phrases in search of a certain conversational je ne sais quoi. The globe is a rich buffet, and those of us blessed with choice naturally go in search of cultural capital and varied experience.

The link between clothing and personal identity, however, means that putting on another culture’s clothes is a greater claim to ownership and belonging than sampling sushi or buying a burrito for lunch. As long as nudity isn’t a socially acceptable option, we are what we wear – and our desire to define ourselves through borrowed finery can either enrich or impoverish the source community.

Staying on the right side of the inspiration/appropriation divide requires individual awareness and attention to three S’s: significance (or sacredness), source and similarity. What’s the significance of the necklace you’re about to put on: is it just jewelry or a set of prayer beads? Did the source community invite you to wear that traditional robe, perhaps via voluntary sale, and does the community still suffer from a history of exploitation, discrimination or oppression? And how similar is that designer adaptation to the original: a head-to-toe copy, or just a nod in the direction of silhouette or pattern?"

I encourage people to read it, if they want to respond to the article. The three paragraphs above are just a snippet and not her entire argument.

Scafidi was really on to something in this article, and I read excerpts of her book for an anthropology course once. I think that a lot of offense made regarding cultural appropriation does come down to intent. Are you trying to make an homage or being inspired by a cultural element (think Ralph Lauren's many odes to rural and Western USA), or are you attempting to do a facsimile (Gwen Stefani's "Harajuku Girls" comes to mind here)? Or is the goal to cause controversy and potentially offend, and are you prepared for it (biggest glaring example for me isn't Pharell but Lana Del Ray's "Ride" music video).

I don't think that anyone "owns" a culture but there is a difference between cultural exchange and cultural appropriation, and the line is very fine. It really is art in and of itself to navigate taking inspiration from cultures outside yourself and not disrespect them and make a fool of yourself. Type 2 in OP's post is not necessarily the most offensive but also lazy people seem to really make it the easiest one to trip over.

Regarding Type 1 or stolen valor, I personally would not indicate military affiliation of any kind I didn't have, but maybe someone who served could weigh in on that. I know there is like a weird subculture of people who want to pretend they are Special Forces folks, but those folks tend to out themselves real quick and it is so uncomfortable for everyone.

Type 3 I think is relatively inoffensive, but can be comical. Living in the Pacific Northwest it is common for many people to wear Carharrts and drive humongous trucks, but have never done manual labor in their life. I myself wear a double rider but do not own a motorcycle. I think that is totally reasonable to wear clothing without doing the activity if you really like the look or feel, but I definitely understand the disappointment when you're at the BBQ and the dude wearing Justins doesn't know how to trim a brisket

 

[adrianvo]

Colonialism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

White guilt - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Why not just list up every single bad thing every group of people on earth ever did, so we can conclude that everyone should just slash their wrists and walk around naked because we all suck?

The bias of people with white guilt is embarrassing. I personally don't feel any guilt for any action I had no part in. Grow a pair.

This is truly unhelpful commentary in a place where people are attempting to have honest discourse about a topic that can be very hard to navigate with grace.

I'll point out stupidity and bias wherever I see it. I don't think holding white people to one standard and the rest of the world to another is very graceful, as you so eloquently desire.
No one ever calls it cultural appropriation when Asians or Africans wear suits, so if a white guy wants to wear a Kimono or a Madiba - who cares (except self-hating people)?

 

[Phileas Fogg]

This is truly unhelpful commentary in a place where people are attempting to have honest discourse about a topic that can be very hard to navigate with grace.

Perhaps, but I won’t judge.
He does, however, make a point that should not just be dismissed.

Ideas like this are a symptom of Western guilt. I don’t think non-westerners sit around worrying about such things. The west’s culture and science has been appropriated around the world and with good reason. Yet we quibble about whether it’s appropriate to wear Colors and pattern unique to one culture or another.

Rick Bayless is a local restauranteur with national and international repute. If you’ve never been to any of his restaurants then you’re missing out on some of the finest and most authentic Mexican food you’ll ever taste.
I was having a conversation with a woman once and his name came up. She was of Latin American descent. She commented on how she didn’t like him because she felt he was “appropriating” culture for his own gain. Out of politeness I didn’t debate her.
However, the argument seemed strange. Anyone who knows or follows Bayless will tell you he’s incredibly reverential to the food and the culture and goes out of his way to present it as authentically as he can. He has a local TV show and will show case restaurants in Mexico as well.

 

[upsett1_spaghett1]

Perhaps, but I won’t judge.
He does, however, make a point that should not just be dismissed.

Ideas like this are a symptom of Western guilt. I don’t think non-westerners sit around worrying about such things. The west’s culture and science has been appropriated around the world and with good reason. Yet we quibble about whether it’s appropriate to wear Colors and pattern unique to one culture or another.

Rick Bayless is a local restauranteur with national and international repute. If you’ve never been to any of his restaurants then you’re missing out on some of the finest and most authentic Mexican food you’ll ever taste.
I was having a conversation with a woman once and his name came up. She was of Latin American descent. She commented on how she didn’t like him because she felt he was “appropriating” culture for his own gain. Out of politeness I didn’t debate her.
However, the argument seemed strange. Anyone who knows or follows Bayless will tell you he’s incredibly reverential to the food and the culture and goes out of his way to present it as authentically as he can. He has a local TV show and will show case restaurants in Mexico as well.

His "point" intentionally ignores current power dynamics and the ongoing legacy of colonialism. Succinctly put, non-westerners don't really think about it as much because often, they were the victims of very recent or ongoing exploitation. So yeah we quibble here in the western world but isn't it right for us to discuss how we benefit from cultural exchange that has been very unequal?

Side note: as a person of indigenous descent I really don't feel bad if white people feel bad about colonialism, and if I catch them wearing a headdress they best believe they can catch these hands.

I don't think OP's original goal was to have all of us arguing how colonialism affected us personally but rather discuss how the way we dress affects those around us.

Regarding your anecdote about Rick Bayless, I know nothing of him personally but I think it again comes down to respect. Does he respect the culture and add something to it's conversation or history? Cool, go for it. Is it negatively affecting the culture, mocking or harming it? Then maybe don't do that thing.

 

[radicaldog]

White guilt - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Why not just list up every single bad thing every group of people on earth ever did, so we can conclude that everyone should just slash their wrists and walk around naked because we all suck?

The bias of people with white guilt is embarrassing. I personally don't feel any guilt for any action I had no part in. Grow a pair.

Has it ever occurred to you that not all guilt is irrational and/or a form of bias?

 

[Phileas Fogg]

His "point" intentionally ignores current power dynamics and the ongoing legacy of colonialism. Succinctly put, non-westerners don't really think about it as much because often, they were the victims of very recent or ongoing exploitation. So yeah we quibble here in the western world but isn't it right for us to discuss how we benefit from cultural exchange that has been very unequal?

Side note: as a person of indigenous descent I really don't feel bad if white people feel bad about colonialism, and if I catch them wearing a headdress they best believe they can catch these hands.

I don't think OP's original goal was to have all of us arguing how colonialism affected us personally but rather discuss how the way we dress affects those around us.

Regarding your anecdote about Rick Bayless, I know nothing of him personally but I think it again comes down to respect. Does he respect the culture and add something to it's conversation or history? Cool, go for it. Is it negatively affecting the culture, mocking or harming it? Then maybe don't do that thing.

then you’re welcome to stay angry, or rather Upsett.

 

[stdavidshead]

I don't think OP's original goal was to have all of us arguing how colonialism affected us personally but rather discuss how the way we dress affects those around us.

Half right! I have nothing particularly original or intelligent to say on that subject. And anyways, my closet isn't full of headdresses, kimonos, miter hats, or other such objects.

Why only half right? I don't think the feelings of others was what I was after either. To take a simple example, one of the "weird subculture" types you allude to, who essentially pretend to be ex Special Forces, might not actually hurt anyone's feelings if they're never caught. But even so, isn't pretending to be a member of a group you're not a part of an incredibly inauthentic thing to do?

The authenticity I am interested in is more self-referential than it is cultural. I look at certain things in my closet and my concern isn't offending, say, Northern European fisherman, whom I am very unlikely to meet in any case. It's more a question of why someone who has never so much as fished off a pier owns so many fisherman sweaters. Is this more like Type 1, which I think we all agree is bad (though it seems that many are unsure of where exactly Type 1 ends and Type 2 begins) or is it more like Type 3 (possibly a little silly, but not dishonest to oneself.) I still think it's the latter, but am still curious to know what others think.

 

[adrianvo]

His "point" intentionally ignores current power dynamics and the ongoing legacy of colonialism. Succinctly put, non-westerners don't really think about it as much because often, they were the victims of very recent or ongoing exploitation. So yeah we quibble here in the western world but isn't it right for us to discuss how we benefit from cultural exchange that has been very unequal?

Side note: as a person of indigenous descent I really don't feel bad if white people feel bad about colonialism, and if I catch them wearing a headdress they best believe they can catch these hands.

I don't think OP's original goal was to have all of us arguing how colonialism affected us personally but rather discuss how the way we dress affects those around us.

Regarding your anecdote about Rick Bayless, I know nothing of him personally but I think it again comes down to respect. Does he respect the culture and add something to it's conversation or history? Cool, go for it. Is it negatively affecting the culture, mocking or harming it? Then maybe don't do that thing.

I don't care if you are indigenous or insidious, but it appears you're quite a bit of both.

If you think living people should blame living people for what dead people did to dead people, then you're either extremely dumb - or perhaps you just don't like white people? You're also suggesting you're ready to rob any white person wearing a headdress that isn't western like a pathetic criminal, so I hope you're also ready to get knocked out while trying. Let's face it though, you'll just blame racism like the little coward you are when you do? Right?

Another thing, more than likely you know nothing about the history of colonialism, nor have you taken any time to study it in depth. You've just gone from "colonialism bad, therefore, white people bad!!1". You're as basic as they come.

Has it ever occurred to you that not all guilt is irrational and/or a form of bias?

Refer to my quote in bold text, and tell me that this is rational.
Since your nickname consists of the word "radical-", I guess it's fair to say you self-identify as a radical Marxist of some kind - the type who usually carries your woke anti-western (read white) beliefs.

 

[radicaldog]

Refer to my quote in bold text, and tell me that this is rational.
Since your nickname consists of the word "radical-", I guess it's fair to say you self-identify as a radical Marxist of some kind - the type who usually carries your woke anti-western (read white) beliefs.

Indeed it is not rational to "blame living people for what dead people did to dead people". But it is rational to ask whether and how some living people still benefit and others suffer from what dead people did to dead people.

As to my nickname, I have in fact published critiques of "wokeness" and "wokewashing" from a left perspective under my real name, but feel free to tar all radicals with the same brush if that pleases you.

 

[stdavidshead]

By your logic, non-western people should stop wearing western clothes.

...but then I remembered how brainlets like you only apply this to white people.

I'd be the first to acknowledge the modesty of my intellectual abilities. Can you point out how what I wrote logically implies this? If anything, I expected to catch flak for too narrow of a definition of Type 1.

 

[adrianvo]

Indeed it is not rational to "blame living people for what dead people did to dead people". But it is rational to ask whether and how some living people still benefit and others suffer from what dead people did to dead people.

As to my nickname, I have in fact published critiques of "wokeness" and "wokewashing" from a left perspective under my real name, but feel free to tar all radicals with the same brush if that pleases you.

What difference does it make? Do you think all living people should feel like **** because of something people they share their birthplace and ethnic origins with did something bad in the past? What will it solve?
Do you think it will help get rid of upsett1_spaghett1's chip on his shoulder? I sincerely doubt it.

Do you think Arab's go around whipping their backs because of Arab colonialism? They don't. And no one talks about it, because they're not the trendy target to bash by the woke (self-hating) left these days.

I don't consider all leftists the same, but I have yet to meet one that doesn't think: "white people suck, we should hate ourselves and give every stage to others because we're irredeemable and evil."

I'd be the first to acknowledge the modesty of my intellectual abilities. Can you point out how what I wrote logically implies this? If anything, I expected to catch flak for too narrow of a definition of Type 1.

Cultural appropriation is in itself popularized by "woke" Marxists to smack western people with guilt for enjoying cultural aspects of other cultures, just like other cultures enjoy aspects of western culture daily.

The term is stupid, and it suggests that people of whatever culture is so frail that seeing another person enjoying it would be too much to tolerate. It's belittling. The overwhelming experience from the real world is that people from most cultures enjoy, and even feel a sense of pride, when people from other cultures come to dress up as them or partake in their cultural heritage.


If person A from culture A hates person B and sees person B dressing up like culture A, person A will find a reason to legitimize his hate for person B.

 

[stdavidshead]

Cultural appropriation is in itself popularized by "woke" Marxists to smack western people with guilt for enjoying cultural aspects of other cultures, just like other cultures enjoy aspects of western culture daily.

The term is stupid, and it suggests that people of whatever culture is so frail that seeing another person enjoying it would be too much to tolerate. It's belittling. The overwhelming experience from the real world is that people from most cultures enjoy, and even feel a sense of pride, when people from other cultures come to dress up as them or partake in their cultural heritage.


If person A from culture A hates person B and sees person B dressing up like culture A, person A will find a reason to legitimize his hate for person B.

I never mentioned cultural appropriation. I put the word appropriation in quotation marks in Type II, and then disputed that Type II is a real category of inauthenticity.

I'm very tempted to make a long and unflattering comparison between you and the people you claim to dislike, who see something that reminds them of something else, assume the worst, and fly off the handle.

But really, I came here to discuss clothes. Ideally, my clothes, if I'm being very honest. I'd appreciate it if you and others who want to talk about colonialism, cultural appropriation, and so on started their own thread to do so.

 

[radicaldog]

I don't consider all leftists the same, but I have yet to meet one that doesn't think: "white people suck, we should hate ourselves and give every stage to others because we're irredeemable and evil."

Cultural appropriation is in itself popularized by "woke" Marxists to smack western people with guilt for enjoying cultural aspects of other cultures, just like other cultures enjoy aspects of western culture daily.

It sounds as though you would benefit from broadening your social circle.

And also: if you think wokeness has anything to do with Marxism you either don't understand wokeness, or Marxism, or both. In their prevailing forms, wokeness and all the discourse around cultural appropriation are fundamentally liberal concerns.

I'll stop now as I don't want to derail this further.