Are MPP/MPA degrees worthless?

[FLMountainMan]

Originally Posted by yerfdog

Haha, seriously. And on a state employee's salary!

Well, I've always worked full-time (which I cannot recommend against enough during law school) and taken out student loans as necessary. And the MBA and MPA were both from FSU, which is either THE cheapest or one of the cheapest graduate schools in the country.

Law school has definitely been the best ROI (and took the longest and was the hardest, so it's fitting). Not only for the jobs it allows you access to, but for the way it trains your mind to think. Extremely helpful when dealing with work, life, etc....

 

[Canal Directo]

And what about MBA/MPA joint degrees?

 

[Connemara]

Originally Posted by FLMountainMan

Well, I've always worked full-time (which I cannot recommend against enough during law school) and taken out student loans as necessary. And the MBA and MPA were both from FSU, which is either THE cheapest or one of the cheapest graduate schools in the country. Law school has definitely been the best ROI (and took the longest and was the hardest, so it's fitting). Not only for the jobs it allows you access to, but for the way it trains your mind to think. Extremely helpful when dealing with work, life, etc....
O rly? You no likey the part time programs?

 

[MsMcGillicuddy]

MPAs can also help you get work in local and state government, not just federal. I've seen people get MPAs with a finance focus and work for the budget departments of city, county and state agencies. Most have not had a problem finding a job they want and like. Sometimes it seems like half of the government in my city got their MPAs.

And ditto on the suggestion about the President Management program. A few people I know went that route and I don't think any regretted it.

 

[FLMountainMan]

Originally Posted by Connemara

O rly? You no likey the part time programs?

Part-time law school is just a stupid concept. The only way I can see that it would be okay would be if you already worked at a law firm.

Law school, at least the one I attended, is directly competitive. Try competing against a kid that woke up at 10 o'clock, watched Judge Judy until noon, and then studied until five. In the meantime, you woke up at 7 and worked from 8 till 5. Then you compete against that kid in class. If there is a program that has a separate ranking for part-time students and doesn't let full-time students into the same class, then it would be workable. Otherwise, forget about it.

A few numbers from my part-time class, IIRC. We began with 88 students, 74 of whom worked full-time. The rest were assholes who either worked part-time or not-at-all. Thirteen left after the first semester, so we were down to 75 students. At the time I graduated (I graduated a semester earlier than the rest of the workers because I took extra courses, sacrificing class ranking for money and getting the hell out), only 11 of us were still working full-time. The rest had either quit their jobs, dropped out, or transferred to the full-time program. I would always look for the full-time workers on the honor roll list and never saw them.

Furthermore, if you aren't already at a law firm, you aren't able to clerk or intern because you are working your real job full-time.

There are, of course, always exceptions. I believe one of the supreme court justices earned his law degree at nights.

 

[yerfdog]

FLMountainMan, why did you decide to go back for your MPA? If I remember right, you already have a good job, except for your boss. Is it going to help you get some higher up government job in the future?

(Asking because I'm now a government employee and I've been thinking about how to advance my career given the non-law-practice direction that it has taken.)

 

[rdawson808]

Originally Posted by ektaylor

However, most elite East Coast MPP programs can and will place you DC. Essentially, don't go to a ****** school.

I'm not sure if you mean "DC" as in federal work, and if you mean that one needs to go to an "elite east coast" school to do that, but if so, I would disagree.

I can think of numerous colleagues who have MPP/MPA from state schools. The fact is that the federal government is f-ing huge and if it only hired from "elite" schools it would never find enough employees.

Further, I would suspect (no facts to back it up) alumni from "elite" schools feel they have more options, and given federal pay, would pursue those first. I.e. the example of working on Wall Street specializing in public finance.

Just some quick reactions.

b

 

[FLMountainMan]

Originally Posted by yerfdog

FLMountainMan, why did you decide to go back for your MPA? If I remember right, you already have a good job, except for your boss. Is it going to help you get some higher up government job in the future?

(Asking because I'm now a government employee and I've been thinking about how to advance my career given the non-law-practice direction that it has taken.)

I just wanted it. FSU has a really good school for it and the state gives partial tuition waivers for it. In my field, early education, an MBA actually puts some people off, as ridiculous as that sounds.

An MPA is a really interesting degree. I read constantly, but it's still opened my eyes to a lot of new ways to think about government.

 

[Oligarch]

If the field you want to join values MBAs or JDs, an MPA may be nice, but will not carry the same weight as those two degrees.

If one can get an MPA for free or do it in addition to an MBA/JD/PhD for little incremental cost, great. Otherwise, from what I've seen places like the KSG are just money-making programs that provide full-tuition students for universities to subsidize their social science PhD programs.

From what I've seen, profs that have the choice would rather be based in their own academic department (e.g., economics, government, history) than in an MPA "school" where there are more teaching demands and less research opportunities.

 

[bobyoung7]

My wife, who works in higher education administration, has an MPA with a concentration in nonprofit administration. It has been beneficial since most of her jobs required a master's.

However, I recently read an interesting series of articles in the NYT about the crises in education. First, universities are businesses, big businesses, that have to watch their bottom line, so they create fields of study and lower standards in order to collect more tuition. Second, there are way too many colleges and universities in the United Stated.

As a result, you have thousands of marginally intelligent people with dubious skill sets holding virtually worthless degrees, bachelor's and master's, from diploma mills. The market cannot absorb the constant flow of new graduates. A prime example is a MA in International Relations from, not Georgetown, nor Columbia, nor Stanford, but from Western Kentucky. That borders on criminal.

Get whatever degree you choose, but understand that the key to career success in America is connections, connections, and connections.

 

[Milhouse]

Originally Posted by bobyoung7

My wife, who works in higher education administration, has an MPA with a concentration in nonprofit administration. It has been beneficial since most of her jobs required a master's.

However, I recently read an interesting series of articles in the NYT about the crises in education. First, universities are businesses, big businesses, that have to watch their bottom line, so they create fields of study and lower standards in order to collect more tuition. Second, there are way too many colleges and universities in the United Stated.

As a result, you have thousands of marginally intelligent people with dubious skill sets holding virtually worthless degrees, bachelor's and master's, from diploma mills. The market cannot absorb the constant flow of new graduates. A prime example is a MA in International Relations from, not Georgetown, nor Columbia, nor Stanford, but from Western Kentucky. That borders on criminal.

Get whatever degree you choose, but understand that the key to career success in America is connections, connections, and connections.

Just wanted to make sure everyone really got that part.

 

[Connemara]

Originally Posted by bobyoung7

As a result, you have thousands of marginally intelligent people with dubious skill sets holding virtually worthless degrees, bachelor's and master's, from diploma mills. The market cannot absorb the constant flow of new graduates. A prime example is a MA in International Relations from, not Georgetown, nor Columbia, nor Stanford, but from Western Kentucky. That borders on criminal.
Very good point. The fact that tier 3 schools offer PhD programs, and then wonder why they can't place any students, is kind of hilarious.

 

[FLMountainMan]

Originally Posted by Connemara

Very good point. The fact that tier 3 schools offer PhD programs, and then wonder why they can't place any students, is kind of hilarious.

Or that a third of the students that FAMU Law accepts scored below a 140 on the LSAT. But it's okay to accept these guys, bill them for two-and-a-half years of substandard education, and then give them a 45% chance to pass the Florida Bar. Seriously, there's an interesting way to analyze law schools based on how many of their incoming class should pass the Bar (based on LSAT score) and how many actually do. FAMU scores even worse than they should.

Some students simply aren't smart enough to be lawyers/doctors/rocket scientists/whatever. Subsidizing their education is stupid.

 

[Timeless Fashion]

Originally Posted by Canal Directo

And what about MBA/MPA joint degrees?

IIRC, Yale's MPPM degree was a combined degree in that they studied both the private and public/non-profit sectors. Since they officially changed it to the "MBA" degree a few years, I don't know if they changed their curriculum to focus more on the private sector.

I wouldn't go for a MPP/MPA degree unless you know you want to work in the public/non-profit sector. Most people go for the biggest bang for the buck and would rather work in the for profit sector where an MBA is the standard.

 

[MrG]

Originally Posted by ektaylor

One of the problems with MPP (and to a lesser extent MPA) programs is that they are sometimes treated as a poor man's MBA. Meaning students apply to the programs with hopes they will end up in some managerial position in the private sector. While the private sector is not entirely fantasy, assuming the MPP you picked up at some ****** CSU is going to open to door to Wall Street is.

MPP programs tend to be rewarding in the "local" connections you make. For instance, if you wanted to work in the Bay Area as a policy analysis, etc Goldman would be the best school (Berkeley). If you were interested in Texas then LBJ would be your school. However, most elite East Coast MPP programs can and will place you DC. Essentially, don't go to a ****** school.

The first paragraph of this post is ridiculous. I just finished my MPA at a top five school, and NO ONE there was attending as a backup to an MBA. The MPA is the public sector equivalent of the MBA, so there's not a lot of overlap, and students know it. People who go to MPA programs are there because they want government/nonprofit, and there are no delusions re: their career path. Admittedly, some want to consult, but even those people want to consult to governments/nonprofits, so the MPA is exactly what they need.

Originally Posted by MsMcGillicuddy

MPAs can also help you get work in local and state government, not just federal. I've seen people get MPAs with a finance focus and work for the budget departments of city, county and state agencies. Most have not had a problem finding a job they want and like. Sometimes it seems like half of the government in my city got their MPAs.

And ditto on the suggestion about the President Management program. A few people I know went that route and I don't think any regretted it.

This is true. My specialization was finance, and I work in local government. Everyone in my office has an advanced degree - four MPAs and a PhD. Unless you want to work in a third rate city, an advanced degree is almost a foregone conclusion for applicants. Any decent job with a decent chance of promotion takes at least a master's now.

Another +1 on the PMF, though I can think of at least one guy who got a federal job (OMB) without it. I was also best qualified for GAO, but they canceled the position without interviews, and I didn't do the PMF.