Are dress shoes worth maiming yourself for?

[ridgerider]

I've had a couple of pairs of shoes that were terribly uncomfortable when I first started wearing them and after a half dozen wears, they loosened up and fit perfectly now. I have had one pair though that never did. It was from a brand that is known for fairly unforgiving leather and never really stretched, so I had to resell them to someone with a narrower foot.

Interesting about the outside toe squeeze that goes with some designs. Thanks for sharing that info.

 

[joshuagb]

One thing to really keep in mind here when looking at those pattern drawings, particularly the one from the Frank Jones book, is that the insole of a shoe can sometimes be a little narrower than the total overall width of a shoe. The uppers of the shoe, as well as the outsole, are both going to be wider than the insole per se. The sort of fleshy part of the toe can be supported by a little bit of the combination of the upper and the outsole without being pushed together. To reiterate, it's not as if a flat wall rises up from that edge of the insole forcing the toes to take that shape.

However, I will acknowledge that both of those pictures probably show a width that might not be tolerated by all people with that shoe shape. I personally would probably appreciate more width. And honestly, a bootmaker can make that adjustment for preference during the bespoke fitting process. It could be simply making it wider, or it might be making it wider and longer. Hard to say, because again part of it is about preference.

Really would be nice to a bootmaker weigh in on this thread.

 

[JFWR]

Came across a few images that I felt were relevant to this thread. First is an X-ray demonstrating a comparison of shoes with inadequate space in the toe box versus what's described as adequate. I'm not sure of the original source for the Xray but I found it on the Carreducker blog. http://carreducker.blogspot.com/2013/11/the-art-of-fitting-and-selling-shoes.html?m=1

View attachment 1626439
From my experience a shoe that fits like the second example above would be uncomfortable on my foot.

Second image comes from Pattern Cutting by Frank Jones, a man with decades of experience in the shoe industry.
View attachment 1626447
It shows the modification required to a sandal insole versus a shoe insole for the same foot. Notice how the shoe insole would press in the Large and Small toes.

Since I last posted on this thread I've spoken directly to two bespoke makers about typical allowance for the toes, and they've both described that compressing the small and large toes (such as in these images) is generally fine.

It seems that unfortunately I'm just an outlier in that I cannot comfortably tolerate what would be considered a "normal" amount of pressure on the toes. From comments received here and reading elsewhere, I'm not entirely alone but most people are perfectly happy to wear shoes which bend their toes inwards and do not experience significant discomfort when doing so.

If you're getting bespoke shoes, tell the shoe maker you want the shoes to not bend your toes at all. If the bespoke maker doesn't want to accommodate you, then tell him you won't be buying from him? I mean, I don't understand why someone is going to refuse your request here.

 

[Nobilis Animus]

Other possible solutions:

Commissioning shoes with all-elastic uppers.

Cutting holes into the sides of your dress shoes.

Foot binding. (not recommended)

Wearing comfortable shoes inside of a dress shoe. (clunky)

Walking on the sides of the feet. (won't fix the problem, but will grant perspective because even worse)

These (the sexiest option):

 

[Boggis]

If you're getting bespoke shoes, tell the shoe maker you want the shoes to not bend your toes at all. If the bespoke maker doesn't want to accommodate you, then tell him you won't be buying from him? I mean, I don't understand why someone is going to refuse your request here.

Well yes, I'm sure pretty much any bespoke maker would be happy to accommodate such a request. I'm not sure what gave you the impression that finding a bespoke maker was a problem?

I guess I'm largely posting this here in case it's of use to anyone else who has similar fit issues. When I started buying decent shoes I couldn't understand why sales assistants & shoemakers were both trying to get me to wear shoes that caused me discomfort in the toes. The answer, is that most people would find such shoes comfortable and that I just have unusual fitting requirements. I know there's plenty of people out there with similar preferences to me, but perhaps most of them are wearing oversized trainers like I did for 30+ years!

 

[nh10222]

Thanks for the great discussion and images here.
I'm about to experiment with barefoot running shoes in circumstances where traditional dress shoes/boots are not required. That means splayed toes, no heel elevation, and no toe spring. I suspect shoe stretchers will soon be on my shopping list, to adjust some of my dress shoes.

 

[clee1982]

There is a minimalist dress shoe brand, it’s super ugly though…

ps i tried run barefoot when I did 10k daily take too much get use to so I didn’t really do that in the end, how committed are you?

 

[nh10222]

There is a minimalist dress shoe brand, it’s super ugly though…

ps i tried run barefoot when I did 10k daily take too much get use to so I didn’t really do that in the end, how committed are you?

I'm committed to the experiment. Beyond that, not sure yet. Running barefoot worked well for me in the distant past where a safe space was available, but is probably not a viable option at the moment.

As for the dress shoes, I'll stick with what I've got for now, toe constriction and all, but conscious of the fact that they are largely designed to look pretty, and not necessarily good for the feet.

 

[clee1982]

I don’t know if they’re bad for the foot, we (modern human) mostly walk on hard surface these days.

I’m not sure what stretcher would do in this case if the objective is to “free the toe”, stretcher won’t really stretch much toe puff I imagine ?

 

[nh10222]

I don’t know if they’re bad for the foot, we (modern human) mostly walk on hard surface these days.

I’m not sure what stretcher would do in this case if the objective is to “free the toe”, stretcher won’t really stretch much toe puff I imagine ?

Dress shoes generally being pretty hard, I'm not sure if they do much to cushion us on hard surfaces.

On the shoe stretcher, I might find out.

 

[clee1982]

I really wouldn’t try to stretch toe box, if they really stretch much you’re likely close to breaking it

ps this is the one I saw on minimalist dress shoe

Buying tip - The Last Shoemaker minimalist shoes - Shoegazing.com

For those who are in need off or want to try using so-called minimalist shoes but still like well-made good looking dress shoes there's very few options.

shoegazing.com

 

[nh10222]

I really wouldn’t try to stretch toe box, if they really stretch much you’re likely close to breaking it

ps this is the one I saw on minimalist dress shoe

Buying tip - The Last Shoemaker minimalist shoes - Shoegazing.com

For those who are in need off or want to try using so-called minimalist shoes but still like well-made good looking dress shoes there's very few options.

shoegazing.com

Interesting link, thanks

 

[Son Of Saphir]

What you are describing with your toe situation is a problem with width.

If your toes are getting smooshed, it has to be a width issue. There is no way to have smooshed toes and not have a problem with width, except if you are going way too short.

Alden has combination lasts where the heel will be narrower than the front. Moreover, heels are fairly easy to fix whereas a too narrow show won't work at all.

No it not a width issue.
Making a shoe wider in the toe box may make shoe fit around toes but it will become too wide in the ball of the foot.
Making a shoe longer with make shoe too long.

It is a last issue.
It is how shoe curves in and clips toes.
Last needs to be specially made to curve in late,
or a square toe shoe.

Combinations lasts not fix the problem either.
It all about proportions.
Combination lasts will bring things out of proportion.