Alternatives to Paul Stuart suits (ny)

[dieworkwear]

I've been buying "bespoke" suits from a traveling Hong Kong tailor for around $700- $1K, but now I'm starting to think they're actually MTM... the website doesn't specify beyond stating they are "tailored."

Is a fully bespoke suit possible at this price point, even from Hong Kong?

This can get into a long discussion and I have a deadline I need to meet today. The short answer:

The terms bespoke, MTM, and ready-to-wear are often simplified online. We all know what is RTW. These are garments that you can pull off the rack. Bespoke is commonly thought of as a handmade garment produced from scratch using three fittings. And MTM is commonly characterized in this cartoony way with machines buzz and kicking about, spitting out a garment and then altered with one fitting.

In reality, bespoke has many traditions. Some tailors skip the basted and go straight to the forward fitting, making it a two-fitting process. Some MTM companies also use try-on suits, which stretch the process out to something that's akin to a two-fitting process. Many Savile Row firms now use block patterns. And some bespoke firms in Italy are not only using block patterns, they are producing suits straight to finish in the same workshop where they are producing traditional bespoke clothes. These straight-to-finish garments are then sent to the client with the understanding that the client will have things altered locally.

The line between MTM and bespoke is getting fuzzier. I can detail out what's a "Gold Standard" for bespoke, but many firms, including top ones on Savile Row, are not meeting that standard today. So when we ask "is this bespoke?" it helps to figure out what we mean first by the term bespoke.

I use a tailor who uses a three-fitting process. The garments have a lot of leeway in terms of customization (I know because I've asked for the gorge to be lowered by centimeters, which is not typically available in MTM). Yet, they use a computer to plot patterns. And part of the chest and lapel padding is done by machine. I wrote about them here

Shears and Needles: A Thread About New Tailors

Tranquil House [Seoul] also previously mentioned:

www.styleforum.net

Is this bespoke or MTM? I think closer to bespoke than MTM, but it's not the type of bespoke that commonly comes to mind when people talk about these things. They charge 1100 euros CMT for a two-piece suit. Ultimately, anyone who charges less than $3k for a bespoke suit in a post-industrial economy has to figure out ways to shave costs so they can make a profit. For this tailor, I think that time saving comes through in the way they machine pad part of their chest and lapels, and how they draft patterns. The "Gold Standard" for bespoke is a hand padded chest and completely new pattern, not adjusted from a block or done by computer. But these innovations allow custom tailors to offer something affordable.

Hard to talk about MTM and bespoke in simple terms, just like how the other thread got caught up in simplified ideas about capitalism and communism. These things are more nuanced.

 

[taxgenius]

This can get into a long discussion and I have a deadline I need to meet today. The short answer:

The terms bespoke, MTM, and ready-to-wear are often simplified online. We all know what is RTW. These are garments that you can pull off the rack. Bespoke is commonly thought of as a handmade garment produced from scratch using three fittings. And MTM is commonly characterized in this cartoony way with machines buzz and kicking about, spitting out a garment and then altered with one fitting.

In reality, bespoke has many traditions. Some tailors skip the basted and go straight to the forward fitting, making it a two-fitting process. Some MTM companies also use try-on suits, which stretch the process out to something that's akin to a two-fitting process. Many Savile Row firms now use block patterns. And some bespoke firms in Italy are not only using block patterns, they are producing suits straight to finish in the same workshop where they are producing traditional bespoke clothes. These straight-to-finish garments are then sent to the client with the understanding that the client will have things altered locally.

The line between MTM and bespoke is getting fuzzier. I can detail out what's a "Gold Standard" for bespoke, but many firms, including top ones on Savile Row, are not meeting that standard today. So when we ask "is this bespoke?" it helps to figure out what we mean first by the term bespoke.

I use a tailor who uses a three-fitting process. The garments have a lot of leeway in terms of customization (I know because I've asked for the gorge to be lowered by centimeters, which is not typically available in MTM). Yet, they use a computer to plot patterns. And part of the chest and lapel padding is done by machine. I wrote about them here

Shears and Needles: A Thread About New Tailors

Tranquil House [Seoul] also previously mentioned:

www.styleforum.net

Is this bespoke or MTM? I think closer to bespoke than MTM, but it's not the type of bespoke that commonly comes to mind when people talk about these things. They charge 1100 euros CMT for a two-piece suit. Ultimately, anyone who charges less than $3k for a bespoke suit in a post-industrial economy has to figure out ways to shave costs so they can make a profit. For this tailor, I think that time saving comes through in the way they machine pad part of their chest and lapels, and how they draft patterns. The "Gold Standard" for bespoke is a hand padded chest and completely new pattern, not adjusted from a block or done by computer. But these innovations allow custom tailors to offer something affordable.

Hard to talk about MTM and bespoke in simple terms, just like how the other thread got caught up in simplified ideas about capitalism and communism. These things are more nuanced.

The way I’ve simplified it in my mind, which is probably incorrect, is whether the tailor could accommodate a theoretical third arm. A bespoke garment should be able to. Separately, my view is that bespoke ain’t worth it if the cutter isn’t measuring you.

 

[rjc149]

This can get into a long discussion and I have a deadline I need to meet today. The short answer:

The terms bespoke, MTM, and ready-to-wear are often simplified online. We all know what is RTW. These are garments that you can pull off the rack. Bespoke is commonly thought of as a handmade garment produced from scratch using three fittings. And MTM is commonly characterized in this cartoony way with machines buzz and kicking about, spitting out a garment and then altered with one fitting.

In reality, bespoke has many traditions. Some tailors skip the basted and go straight to the forward fitting, making it a two-fitting process. Some MTM companies also use try-on suits, which stretch the process out to something that's akin to a two-fitting process. Many Savile Row firms now use block patterns. And some bespoke firms in Italy are not only using block patterns, they are producing suits straight to finish in the same workshop where they are producing traditional bespoke clothes. These straight-to-finish garments are then sent to the client with the understanding that the client will have things altered locally.

The line between MTM and bespoke is getting fuzzier. I can detail out what's a "Gold Standard" for bespoke, but many firms, including top ones on Savile Row, are not meeting that standard today. So when we ask "is this bespoke?" it helps to figure out what we mean first by the term bespoke.

I use a tailor who uses a three-fitting process. The garments have a lot of leeway in terms of customization (I know because I've asked for the gorge to be lowered by centimeters, which is not typically available in MTM). Yet, they use a computer to plot patterns. And part of the chest and lapel padding is done by machine. I wrote about them here

Shears and Needles: A Thread About New Tailors

Tranquil House [Seoul] also previously mentioned:

www.styleforum.net

Is this bespoke or MTM? I think closer to bespoke than MTM, but it's not the type of bespoke that commonly comes to mind when people talk about these things. They charge 1100 euros CMT for a two-piece suit. Ultimately, anyone who charges less than $3k for a bespoke suit in a post-industrial economy has to figure out ways to shave costs so they can make a profit. For this tailor, I think that time saving comes through in the way they machine pad part of their chest and lapels, and how they draft patterns. The "Gold Standard" for bespoke is a hand padded chest and completely new pattern, not adjusted from a block or done by computer. But these innovations allow custom tailors to offer something affordable.

Hard to talk about MTM and bespoke in simple terms, just like how the other thread got caught up in simplified ideas about capitalism and communism. These things are more nuanced.

Thanks, I appreciate the detailed answer. Here's the vendor I'm talking about.

MIKE TAILOR-HONG KONG

Default Meta Description

www.miketailor-hongkong.com

He takes measurements, then 6-8 weeks later, I get the suit. They fit well, but the 4 suits I have from him don't all fit uniformly -- the variations are actually pretty marked. Some jackets are more snug, some trousers roomier, some sleeves longer...

He's coming to NYC in May, and I'm in the market for another suit but I'm considering other options within a $1,500 budget. WW Chan has been mentioned as 'affordable true bespoke' so I'm now pretty curious about that too -- however, if he's also a traveling tailor, then the process would be the same, right? Get measured once, then they ship you the suit?

 

[dieworkwear]

Thanks, I appreciate the detailed answer. Here's the vendor I'm talking about.

MIKE TAILOR-HONG KONG

Default Meta Description

www.miketailor-hongkong.com

He takes measurements, then 6-8 weeks later, I get the suit. They fit well, but the 4 suits I have from him don't all fit uniformly -- the variations are actually pretty marked. Some jackets are more snug, some trousers roomier, some sleeves longer...

He's coming to NYC in May, and I'm in the market for another suit but I'm considering other options within a $1,500 budget. WW Chan has been mentioned as 'affordable true bespoke' so I'm now pretty curious about that too -- however, if he's also a traveling tailor, then the process would be the same, right? Get measured once, then they ship you the suit?

Instead of thinking about whether something is bespoke or MTM, I would think about whether the resulting garment looks good on you. Generally speaking, it's easier to get a good suit if there are more fittings because the tailor can change the garment in iterative steps. If you get measured and the tailor ships you the garment, there's a higher chance of the gamrent not fitting well than if they were to do two or three fittings.

If someone told me that they bought a $1500 suit and had one fitting, I would assume it's MTM.

 

[rjc149]

If someone told me that they bought a $1500 suit and had one fitting, I would assume it's MTM.

Okay, got it.

 

[NoobLord]

How many fittings did you have?

I had 2 but because I really didn’t want to make another trip, otherwise it’d have been 3.

 

[NoobLord]

This can get into a long discussion and I have a deadline I need to meet today. The short answer:

The terms bespoke, MTM, and ready-to-wear are often simplified online. We all know what is RTW. These are garments that you can pull off the rack. Bespoke is commonly thought of as a handmade garment produced from scratch using three fittings. And MTM is commonly characterized in this cartoony way with machines buzz and kicking about, spitting out a garment and then altered with one fitting.

In reality, bespoke has many traditions. Some tailors skip the basted and go straight to the forward fitting, making it a two-fitting process. Some MTM companies also use try-on suits, which stretch the process out to something that's akin to a two-fitting process. Many Savile Row firms now use block patterns. And some bespoke firms in Italy are not only using block patterns, they are producing suits straight to finish in the same workshop where they are producing traditional bespoke clothes. These straight-to-finish garments are then sent to the client with the understanding that the client will have things altered locally.

The line between MTM and bespoke is getting fuzzier. I can detail out what's a "Gold Standard" for bespoke, but many firms, including top ones on Savile Row, are not meeting that standard today. So when we ask "is this bespoke?" it helps to figure out what we mean first by the term bespoke.

I use a tailor who uses a three-fitting process. The garments have a lot of leeway in terms of customization (I know because I've asked for the gorge to be lowered by centimeters, which is not typically available in MTM). Yet, they use a computer to plot patterns. And part of the chest and lapel padding is done by machine. I wrote about them here

Shears and Needles: A Thread About New Tailors

Tranquil House [Seoul] also previously mentioned:

www.styleforum.net

Is this bespoke or MTM? I think closer to bespoke than MTM, but it's not the type of bespoke that commonly comes to mind when people talk about these things. They charge 1100 euros CMT for a two-piece suit. Ultimately, anyone who charges less than $3k for a bespoke suit in a post-industrial economy has to figure out ways to shave costs so they can make a profit. For this tailor, I think that time saving comes through in the way they machine pad part of their chest and lapels, and how they draft patterns. The "Gold Standard" for bespoke is a hand padded chest and completely new pattern, not adjusted from a block or done by computer. But these innovations allow custom tailors to offer something affordable.

Hard to talk about MTM and bespoke in simple terms, just like how the other thread got caught up in simplified ideas about capitalism and communism. These things are more nuanced.

Wouldn’t the biggest differentiator between bespoke and mtm be the bespoke pattern that’s created from measurements as opposed to a mtm template that’s modified to fit?

 

[taxgenius]

Wouldn’t the biggest differentiator between bespoke and mtm be the bespoke pattern that’s created from measurements as opposed to a mtm template that’s modified to fit?

But some well respected bespoke places use a block pattern too.

 

[dieworkwear]

Wouldn’t the biggest differentiator between bespoke and mtm be the bespoke pattern that’s created from measurements as opposed to a mtm template that’s modified to fit?

But some well respected bespoke places use a block pattern too.

In theory, yes, but as @taxgenius said, many traditional, top-end bespoke tailoring houses nowadays use block patterns. I Sarti Italiani also does three fittings but plots patterns using a computer-aided design program. I think the generalizations about bespoke vs. MTM capture the general contours of these two fields, but once you delve into what happens at many bespoke and MTM tailoring houses, the details don't always fit the generalizations.