Alden shell cordovan shoelace hole misalignment - is this normal?

[DWFII]

Originally Posted by janne melkersson

This phenomenon is something that could happend becasue of a couple of resons, the pattern is not done right or the pattern is right but is used on another last then it was creatded for but probably this time it is caused during the lasting process. The machine that is used for lasting the vamp has five pincers and there have been pulled to much on the outside which in this case ended up with the outside about 10mm ahead of the inside. This could very well happend in the bespoke making as well but there we let the first five pulls with the pincer take the time needed to get the result we like. Long time ago no factory would let a shoe like this leave the shop. It would have been sent back to the laster to be re-lasted before the welt was put on.
Spot on Janne. I'm not going to comment on any specific maker but I feel compelled to point out that both of the problems that chips photos illustrate come as a result of a basic philosophical flaw in the manufacturing approach--the factory mentality. I have long held that for a maker you have two choices when you get into this business--you can make shoes or you can make money. You can't really do both. I'm not saying that one precludes the other but the statement is a stark realization of the priorities that are paramount in either context. What is "job one?" In a factory, it is and always will be quantity over quality, speed over deliberation, profit over precision and the "bottom line" will always dictate policy. If the problems being experienced are as a result of poorly implemented lasting machines, one has to ask "where is the operator?" Where is that level of even minimal "skill"(ahem) that one would equate with simple "wakefulness" which might recognize and correct these problems? Moving up the ladder, where is the level of concern and involvement on the part of management that might catch and correct these problems? To discard the shoe or even decide to tag it as a "second?" The fact that this problem is repeated over and over again with no recognition, no growth, no improvement...such as might be expected in a workshop where real shoemakers do the work...is at some level the accepted default rather than an exception. Obviously "quantity control" is humming along famously but where is "quality control?" And that brings us to the real question that underpins all factory work...who is responsible? The answer...aside from the patently cynical "everybody" or "the buck stops here" bits...is that, ultimately, no one is responsible. Perhaps that the real strength of such a system.

 

[Salad]

Originally Posted by janne melkersson

This phenomenon is something that could happend becasue of a couple of resons, the pattern is not done right or the pattern is right but is used on another last then it was creatded for but probably this time it is caused during the lasting process.

The machine that is used for lasting the vamp has five pincers and there have been pulled to much on the outside which in this case ended up with the outside about 10mm ahead of the inside.

This could very well happend in the bespoke making as well but there we let the first five pulls with the pincer take the time needed to get the result we like.

Long time ago no factory would let a shoe like this leave the shop. It would have been sent back to the laster to be re-lasted before the welt was put on.

Not knowing anything about shoe making and/or machines used in the process, would this account for the problem in left shoes only? Are there left and right specific welting machines? If there was one machine for L and R and the same operator for both L and R, then why would the he/she get it wrong only for L shoes? Very curious, indeed.

 

[bengal-stripe]

I do realise that his could be misalignment in the lasting process, but why would it be consistently (with that particular customer) in the left foot only. Surely, a lasting machine, nor it's operator will have a preference for one particular side.

I have that very same problem, admittedly with left and right foot pretty even, because I have very bony feet and ready-to wear lasts are designed for more fleshy feet which would push out the quarters. My outside quarters will always sink lower than my inside quarters. I have learned how to combat the problem and (in my case) I will need from the outside quarters about two millimetre sliced off at the heel, so the outside quarter will be shorter and the eyelets sit higher, joining up with the eyelets from the inside quarters.

Of course in a bespoke shoe, the final fitting of the pattern pieces is done on the last (assuming the last is correct). You cannot expect a ready-to-wear factory to do that: interior and exterior quarters will be identical (apart from the top-line).

Here is a pair of hand-made shoes exhibiting the same problem (evenly). The outside quarters sits too low, so the lacing is on a slant.

Alright, those shoes were not made on a bespoke but a generic last. If the last could not have been rectified, the outside quarters should have been shorter (for this particular customer). Just to check it, dear owner of those shoes, stick your thumb inside the top-line and pull out a few millimetres, see how by magic the outside quarter shortens and the eyelets are aligned properly.

The problem with Derbies (Bluchers) is that the quarters frequently behave in a way you don't want then to (all that freedom to shift around and find their position).

Before people can see those particular shoes with that particular customer en situ, nobody should jump to conclusions.

 

[DWFII]

Hmmm...I wonder if this has something to do with the prevalence of straight-cone lasts in the factory? A straight-cone last is so much easier to use in a lasting machine.

Of course none of this...lasting, style of shoe or foot problems...addresses why all of the examples cited--3 different people, 5 different shoes, several different manufacturers (?) --exhibit this problem on the left foot only (except for Bengal's which seem to be symmetrically skewed).

 

[srivats]

Most, if not all, my bluchers (including Alden, vintage florsheim, hanover, nettleton and AE) exhibit this "issue". Here is a pic of one of my aldens (look at the left shoe). Here is another example - a florsheim shell longwing. It does not bother me at all. I realised a long time ago that this was due to my feet and not the shoes.

Originally Posted by DWFII

Of course none of this...lasting, style of shoe or foot problems...addresses why all of the examples cited--3 different people, 5 different shoes, several different manufacturers (?) --exhibit this problem on the left foot only (except for Bengal's which seem to be symmetrically skewed).

I'd take a BIG guess and say that all who have posted here are right handed people

Similar "issue" (albeit not as much) on a pair of EGs (notice right shoe) - shoes are MoK's from today's WAYWRN:

and another ...

Originally Posted by TRINI

 

[nurktwin]

Check out the stitching holes below posted by forum member on another Alden thread:

Originally Posted by nutcracker

Hi long time reader, first post here. Just want to share my own Alden's wtf moment. Its a LHS loafer in #8 cordovan. Knowing Alden's issue with QC, I specifically asked the store rep. through mail to check if my shoe was in good condition before shipping (won't say which store). Paid full price, wasn't buying seconds. This is what I got. Looks likes someone at New England made a sloppy mistake, tried to correct it in a worse way. I mean, really?? And yes, I returned them, but not before I got some good photos. As told countless of times before, my advise is to buy them in person.

Different view

 

[srivats]

Originally Posted by nurktwin

Check out the stitching holes below posted by forum member on another Alden thread:

Isn't this totally OT?

 

[fritzl]

Originally Posted by bengal-stripe

Before people can see those particular shoes with that particular customer en situ, nobody should jump to conclusions.

i really want to thank you for this priceless advertisement. you're really one of the good guys and your voluntarily contribution to the community is unreached. for the people, who are not in the know. he's doing this unasked. he just takes care of things, he thinks are important. it's part of his mission.

Originally Posted by iammatt

My shoes arrived yesterday. They couldn't be nicer, and the quality is at least at the same level as the other high end Austro-Hungarian shoes I have seen, if not better. The work is very clean, and the leather is beautiful. The last is traditional, yet more elegant than most of the trad A-H lasts. Very, very nice.

Originally Posted by iammatt

i really hope one day we can meet in person and i can thank you heartily for everything you did for me. you're such a wonderful bloke. i'm a bit ashamed now that i'll never can return all the favors you did for me over all this years.

 

[Chips]

Originally Posted by srivats

Most, if not all, my bluchers (including Alden, vintage florsheim, hanover, nettleton and AE) exhibit this "issue". Here is a pic of one of my aldens (look at the left shoe). Here is another example - a florsheim shell longwing. It does not bother me at all. I realised a long time ago that this was due to my feet and not the shoes.



I'd take a BIG guess and say that all who have posted here are right handed people

Similar "issue" (albeit not as much) on a pair of EGs (notice right shoe) - shoes are MoK's from today's WAYWRN:

and another ...


I'm left handed. And I've only worn my longwings three or four times. There's no visible stretching of the shoes vamp. They look exactly as the day I received them.

And to be honest, the lining up of the blucher open lacing problem doesn't bug me. I just thought it was interesting, since it was only on the left shoe.

What does bug me, is the heel on my plain toe. There's no excuse for them selling shoes like that. And since I didn't catch it till a week or two later, it's left at "buyer beware".

 

[Joenobody0]

Originally Posted by Chips

What does bug me, is the heel on my plain toe. There's no excuse for them selling shoes like that. And since I didn't catch it till a week or two later, it's left at "buyer beware".

This is actually my problem with these QC issues. Of course you can return a brand new shoe, and sure we can all look over our shoes really carefully. Unfortunately sometimes some issues only show up in a certain light or you just overlook it. If that happens you're stuck with it. It shouldn't be incumbent upon the end user to find the flaws. If the flaw can get through two levels (at least) of QC why should we be expected to pick it up before use?

 

[bengal-stripe]

Originally Posted by janne melkersson

Long time ago no factory would let a shoe like this leave the shop. It would have been sent back to the laster to be re-lasted before the welt was put on.

Originally Posted by fritzl

great post, thank you

Long time ago no shoemaker would have let those shoes out of the workshop.

You see, this problem has nothing to do with machine-lasting. I kept it anonymous,
as I didn't want a repeat of the sysdoc riot (about iammatt's shoe choice) of a few years ago.

Originally Posted by DWFII

(except for Bengal's which seem to be symmetrically skewed).

Originally Posted by fritzl

i really want to thank you for this priceless advertisement.

Pleasure............skewed they are - at least those shoes are "symmetrically skewed", maybe that is an achievement indicating quality.

 

[DWFII]

Originally Posted by bengal-stripe

Long time ago no shoemaker would have let those shoes out of the workshop. You see, this problem has nothing to do with machine-lasting.
There are two way to look at this--either it's a problem with lasting or patterns or it is a foot problem. If it is a foot problem, it seems an odd one to me. You make a convincing case that it might be a foot problem...at least in some circumstances. But the oddity arises when we consider that it is seemingly confined to one foot and a few makers. Sri's suggestion that it is as a result of "handed--ness" makes just as much sense, in that context as the idea that all these folks have left foot only collapse (or pronation). That said, I've made more oxfords than derbies and of the derbies I've made I've not seen this problem occurring, so I want to reserve judgment here. You could very well be right. If it is a lasting problem, however(and here's where I would interject a cautionary observation)...or a patterning problem...then Janne has the better point, especially with regard to factories. It's a simple economic, and mechanical, reality that the operator of a lasting machine isn't in a position to vary the pull exerted on one side of the shoe or the other to any great degree. The lasting machine has a limited stroke and a set direction each pincer will pull. It can't be altered at the operator level or for an individual shoe or piece of leather. That's the mechanical bit. On the economic side, if the operator is getting paid by the piece or if his job hinges on output, he's not going to be in any hurry to do quality control especially when there's some other fellow at the other end of the line getting paid twice as much to do exactly that--quality control. Similar constraints apply all through the factory...patterns cut incorrectly aren't going to be flagged at some intermediate stage of the process. In some real sense, there's nobody home in a factory. On the other hand, the individual shoemaker or small workshop can pull harder on one side or the other during lasting, or in another, corrective direction. That's a flexibility that no machine can match and if such could be implemented it would almost certainly be cost prohibitive. For all the apocryphal horror stories about bespoke makers, the thing that people have to remember is that every one of us...maker or customer...has to crawl before we walk. We're all born ignorant. The shoemaker who is taking personal responsibility will learn from his mistakes and correct them--he will grow and get better. The operator of a lasting machine, has no incentive to do that. For that reason alone I am dubious that any factory...at any period in history...would be all that immune to these kinds of problems.

 

[voxsartoria]

Originally Posted by bengal-stripe

Here is a pair of hand-made shoes exhibiting the same problem (evenly). The outside quarters sits too low, so the lacing is on a slant.

Alright, those shoes were not made on a bespoke but a generic last. If the last could not have been rectified, the outside quarters should have been shorter (for this particular customer). Just to check it, dear owner of those shoes, stick your thumb inside the top-line and pull out a few millimetres, see how by magic the outside quarter shortens and the eyelets are aligned properly.

The problem with Derbies (Bluchers) is that the quarters frequently behave in a way you don't want then to (all that freedom to shift around and find their position).

Before people can see those particular shoes with that particular customer en situ, nobody should jump to conclusions.

Also note that the trousers fall unevenly, as if the legs terminated in a registered Libertarian.

- B

 

[cimabue]

Originally Posted by DWFII

There are two way to look at this--either it's a problem with lasting or patterns or it is a foot problem. If it is a foot problem, it seems an odd one to me. You make a convincing case that it might be a foot problem...at least in some circumstances. But the oddity arises when we consider that it is seemingly confined to one foot and a few makers. Sri's suggestion that it is as a result of "handed--ness" makes just as much sense, in that context as the idea that all these folks have left foot only collapse (or pronation). That said, I've made more oxfords than derbies and of the derbies I've made I've not seen this problem occurring, so I want to reserve judgment here. You could very well be right. If it is a lasting problem, however(and here's where I would interject a cautionary observation)...or a patterning problem...then Janne has the better point, especially with regard to factories. It's a simple economic, and mechanical, reality that the operator of a lasting machine isn't in a position to vary the pull exerted on one side of the shoe or the other to any great degree. The lasting machine has a limited stroke and a set direction each pincer will pull. It can't be altered at the operator level or for an individual shoe or piece of leather. That's the mechanical bit. On the economic side, if the operator is getting paid by the piece or if his job hinges on output, he's not going to be in any hurry to do quality control especially when there's some other fellow at the other end of the line getting paid twice as much to do exactly that--quality control. Similar constraints apply all through the factory...patterns cut incorrectly aren't going to be flagged at some intermediate stage of the process. In some real sense, there's nobody home in a factory. On the other hand, the individual shoemaker or small workshop can pull harder on one side or the other during lasting, or in another, corrective direction. That's a flexibility that no machine can match and if such could be implemented it would almost certainly be cost prohibitive. For all the apocryphal horror stories about bespoke makers, the thing that people have to remember is that every one of us...maker or customer...has to crawl before we walk. We're all born ignorant. The shoemaker who is taking personal responsibility will learn from his mistakes and correct them--he will grow and get better. The operator of a lasting machine, has no incentive to do that. For that reason alone I am dubious that any factory...at any period in history...would be all that immune to these kinds of problems.
Everything you say is thoughtful and well considered, but you have to agree, the QC guy deserves a kick in the 'nads for the kind of boo boos that have been getting out. Oh I know this is a fixable problem, but is Alden even even aware of what's going on? In the meantime, I'm gonna look very closely at the Aldens I want and run my greasy fingers all over 'em. No way am I shoppin' the Internets for Aldens at this time. Bricks and mortar for me, baby.

 

[fritzl]

Originally Posted by DWFII

...

very informative, but would/could anybody care to show some examples of worn derbies/bluchers when done right?

as bengal said the quarters work like tectonic plates. i.e. i wore a new pair for the first time and the quarters have been in a slightly move over the day. that's quite normal to me.