Outright lies about education

[stimulacra]

Lying on your resume:

1) Best case scenario your career doesn't really go anywhere, and so, no one will ever bother to check it out.

2) Worse case scenario, you sky-rocket to the top, at which point, someone with an interest does a little fact checking. David Edmondson and Jeffrey Papows can attest to this fact.

 

[Soulshine]

Originally Posted by stimulacra

Lying on your resume:

1) Best case scenario your career doesn't really go anywhere, and so, no one will ever bother to check it out.

2) Worse case scenario, you sky-rocket to the top, at which point, someone with an interest does a little fact checking. David Edmondson and Jeffrey Papows can attest to this fact.

I think the amount of people who have lied on their resume and rocketed to the top without getting caught is infinitely higher than those who have gotten caught and then were fired. It's not even a comparison and that's why people continue to do it. A few high profile examples of people getting caught do nothing for the many millions of people who don't.

 

[ektaylor]

Originally Posted by Soulshine

I think the amount of people who have lied on their resume and rocketed to the top without getting caught is infinitely higher than those who have gotten caught and then were fired. It's not even a comparison and that's why people continue to do it. A few high profile examples of people getting caught do nothing for the many millions of people who don't.
You've got to cite your sources, bro. You're one of them aren't you?

 

[Soulshine]

Originally Posted by ektaylor

You've got to cite your sources, bro. You're one of them aren't you?

Do you really need official numbers? People lying on their resume is not some new revelation - it's been going on since the creation of the resume. More people get away with it over getting caught like most things in life, simply due to the numbers.

80 percent of all resumes are misleading
20 percent state fraudulent degrees
30 percent show altered employment dates
40 percent have inflated salary claims
30 percent have inaccurate job descriptions
27 percent give falsified references

http://www.christophermcgill.com/201...r-san-antonio/

 

[ektaylor]

Originally Posted by Soulshine

Do you really need official numbers? People lying on their resume is not some new revelation - it's been going on since the birth of the resume. More people get away with it over getting caught like most things in life.

Yes, I need "official numbers" when you quantify your arguments. This is how the world works. You cannot use the word "millions" if there is no evidence to support your claim. See, this is the problem. If you had gone to school and taken any sort of course that requires you explain where your information, evidence, and ultimately argument is derived, you would know this. The human race has been working together through this thing called academia. You know, the rigorous accumulation of human thought that pulls our species out of dark ages, out of holocausts, out of the depths of poverty and suffering.

Yes, you may "get away with' lying on your resume. But, god damnit, if you get anywhere near a position of power or influence, your unqualified and historically blind actions may very well disrupt the careful progress our species has made to reduce all things horrible. All things that bring pain and suffering to our collective conscience.

When we lie about things as important as our education, we risk others. Plain and simple.

 

[olualbert]

Originally Posted by Egert

Recently talked to someone working in front office in investment banking and when I asked, how did he end up there (pretty respectable bank, pretty respectable position held a few years now @ London), I got a response that shook me a bit.

But since it's kinda ethical thing and respectable banks don't even look at your resume when you don't come from top schools, he outright lied in resume and got hired. I don't know how far in details the lie went, but I'm pretty sure he didn't forge any diplomas, as that would be considered criminal.

Now, I also know that if you already work in a field, you probably don't gain anything in school, but pick it up when you need it. He is pretty much a superstar in his department and it's a win-win for both him and the bank, even though it can be frustrating and too machiavellian (I assume he has kept it to himself @ the bank).

Now, how is the education really checked? Or do employers just assume that one wouldn't dare to lie about something like that? What's your take on this and the situation?

It's awfully and ethically wrong to lie about your educational background in other to secure a job. Such is the situation in my department where a 26 year old lies that he had a 12 years of experience when he had just graduated professional school 4 years ago. It is fundamentally flawed and it should have no place in the professional world. Even Nicholas Machiavelli, did not lie about his educational credentials when he had assumed public duties during his time. Fundamentally, educational background is a requirement, and I get frustrated when hiring authorities feels that a **** load of "dinnosaural" experience can replace high level education. It is a pervasive ideology that is rooted in preventing others from moving up.

 

[Soulshine]

Originally Posted by ektaylor

Yes, I need "official numbers" when you quantify your arguments. This is how the world works. You cannot use the word "millions" if there is no evidence to support your claim. See, this is the problem. If you had gone to school and taken any sort of course that requires you explain where your information, evidence, and ultimately argument is derived, you would know this. The human race has been working together through this thing called academia. You know, the rigorous accumulation of human thought that pulls our species out of dark ages, out of holocausts, out of the depths of poverty and suffering.

Yes, you may "get away with' lying on your resume. But, god damnit, if you get anywhere near a position of power or influence, your unqualified and historically blind actions may very well disrupt the careful progress our species has made to reduce all things horrible. All things that bring pain and suffering to our collective conscience.

When we lie about things as important as our education, we risk others. Plain and simple.

I understand how the world works, but no source is going to quote "millions". But what they are going to do is quote the majority or 80% of all resumes out there in the world have lies in them to some degree.

I am actually amazed that you require a source on this, because I would imagine that anyone logically would say to themselves that yes, since the dawn of resumes - countless people have been lying on their resume , so it would make sense that a few of those millions of people around the world for many decades actually got away with it.

Do you require a source too on the fact that everyone lies to some degree? I will get you one if you really need it.

So if one lies on their resume in terms of their education, does that mean they still can't do a great job? High profile people who were fired, were fired because of the lie - not because they weren't doing a great job or because of a lack of knowledge to do the job. I guess you don't believe in learning as you go.

 

[Soulshine]

Originally Posted by olualbert

It's awfully and ethically wrong to lie about your educational background in other to secure a job. Such is the situation in my department where a 26 year old lies that he had a 12 years of experience when he had just graduated professional school 4 years ago. It is fundamentally flawed and it should have no place in the professional world. Even Nicholas Machiavelli, did not lie about his educational credentials when he had assumed public duties during his time. Fundamentally, educational background is a requirement, and I get frustrated when hiring authorities feels that a **** load of "dinnosaural" experience can replace high level education. It is a pervasive ideology that is rooted in preventing others from moving up.

Many of the richest and most successful people in business never finished high school. Formal education can be overrated. Anyway, I am not saying people should lie - but I recognize that the majority of people do for whatever reason.

 

[ektaylor]

There is a difference in information quality. When a study finds 80% of X has done Y, there are measures of confidence. There are many ways to approximate the truth. Poor sampling can easily lead to fraudulent results. Human beings can only know so much.* The threats to our episteme are too many and without an understanding and respect of statistics and the scientific method we are forging into darkness without the light of our forefathers. You are simply shrugging-off thousands of years of accumulated humanity in the pursuit of something so fleeting it makes me sad. Chasing things that glitter into your latter years only buries those forlorn crowns that came before.

* This the point at which I ingested my 8th beer of the night.

 

[rach2jlc]

Originally Posted by ektaylor

... may very well disrupt the careful progress our species has made to reduce all things horrible. All things that bring pain and suffering to our collective conscience. When we lie about things as important as our education, we risk others. Plain and simple.
The whole point of lying on one's resume is to risk others. That's why they do it; it's a supremely narcissistic choice designed to sacrifice others to aggrandize yourself. As such, I don't think the whole "humanity and morality" argument would really do much good. Besides, what is the "careful progress our species has made to reduce all things horrible?" Seems to me the last century showed us how that very academia, the people within it, and its streamlined efficiency could be used to increase the horror exponentially. People are ****** to each other... even (especially?) smart people. I know; I work with many of them. Besides, there's no reason to go after the other poster in such a pedantic way; his point stands: people do it because they think they won't get caught, and they think the risk is worth the reward. Quite simple. You may personally wish that people would be more considerate of others, and that they'd treat education and their CV as something official, even "sacred," but that doesn't mean that they DO. Further, the whole "forlorn" whatevers just sound comically out of place on this thread. People are ****** to each other, people lie, and all but a VERY few people really give two ***** about academia or scientific rigor. That's the world, and it's all we have with which to work. As a teacher/academic myself, I'd say the easiest way to fix the MAJORITY of the problem is simply to sit down and teach students how to write a resume, and to let them know its seriousness. Very rarely do we actually show students what a CV/resume should look like, and very rarely do we instill in them that it's an "official" document. The same students who wouldn't knowingly plagiarize on a paper for your class nevertheless "lie" or embellish on their resume (intentionally or not.) While some will ALWAYS lie on it, I think most would fix theirs if given the proper training... and that training won't come through some sort of 19th century appeal to universal consciousness and the beauty of human progress that they'll inhibit if they lie.

 

[Soulshine]

Originally Posted by rach2jlc

The whole point of lying on one's resume is to risk others. That's why they do it; it's a supremely narcissistic choice designed to sacrifice others to aggrandize yourself. As such, I don't think the whole "humanity and morality" argument would really do much good. Besides, what is the "careful progress our species has made to reduce all things horrible?" Seems to me the last century showed us how that very academia, the people within it, and its streamlined efficiency could be used to increase the horror exponentially. People are ****** to each other... even (especially?) smart people. I know; I work with many of them.

Besides, there's no reason to go after the other poster in such a pedantic way; his point stands: people do it because they think they won't get caught, and they think the risk is worth the reward. Quite simple. You may personally wish that people would be more considerate of others, and that they'd treat education and their CV as something official, even "sacred," but that doesn't mean that they DO.

Further, the whole "forlorn" whatevers just sound comically out of place on this thread. People are ****** to each other, people lie, and all but a VERY few people really give two ***** about academia or scientific rigor. That's the world, and it's all we have with which to work. As a teacher/academic myself, I'd say the easiest way to fix the MAJORITY of the problem is simply to sit down and teach students how to write a resume, and to let them know its seriousness. Very rarely do we actually show students what a CV/resume should look like, and very rarely do we instill in them that it's an "official" document.

The same students who wouldn't knowingly plagiarize on a paper for your class nevertheless "lie" or embellish on their resume (intentionally or not.) While some will ALWAYS lie on it, I think most would fix theirs if given the proper training... and that training won't come through some sort of 19th century appeal to universal consciousness and the beauty of human progress that they'll inhibit if they lie.


It's not an excuse, but some people lie on their resume just to be able to get a job period. It's not always about people who say they graduated from Harvard when they didn't.

 

[rach2jlc]

Originally Posted by Soulshine

It's not an excuse, but some people lie on their resume just to be able to get a job period. It's not always about people who say they went to Harvard when they didn't.
Agreed. Nevertheless, my point (in support of your earlier one which was jumped onto by ektaylor) was that the lie is to put themselves ahead of somebody else, from the start, and as such his argument about the "hurting of humanity's forlorn thorn-crowning" or whatever doesn't really hold up, or at the very least would do no convincing to the people who are doing the deed. At most, it just preaches to the choir. I found his argument almost comically idealistic and out-of-date; I agree with his concern over misrepresentation, but also think that the way he describes humanity's "progress" and mankind sounds like something from ancient Greece, or written from well within a secluded ivory tower, basically neglecting every historic event that happened from 1868 until, well, about four minutes ago. Down in the "trenches," life ain't so insular and reasonable. The way to prevent misrepresentation is (1) to describe accurately what misrepresentation is, (2) to explain the seriousness of the documents which are often misrepresented and (3) to point out the REAL risks involved to one's future for misrepresentation. I think, doing these three in an organized, clear fashion will get rid of the majority of the problem. Again, though, you'll always have the outliers who get off on the lie itself.

 

[Soulshine]

Originally Posted by ektaylor

There is a difference in information quality. When a study finds 80% of X has done Y, there are measures of confidence. There are many ways to approximate the truth. Poor sampling can easily lead to fraudulent results. Human beings can only know so much.* The threats to our episteme are too many and without an understanding and respect of statistics and the scientific method we are forging into darkness without the light of our forefathers. You are simply shrugging-off thousands of years of accumulated humanity in the pursuit of something so fleeting it makes me sad. Chasing things that glitter into your latter years only buries those forlorn crowns that came before.

* This the point at which I ingested my 8th beer of the night.

I think it's completely naive to not agree that most people lie on their resume and that this has been going on since the first resume was ever created. Why? Human beings lie. Every single day. You lie, I lie, everybody lies on a constant basis. It's just that some people want to pretend that what they are doing isn't REAL lying, but a white lie or something said to protect the feelings of another. So while YOU may not be lying on your resume, you are making up for it in other ways while countless other people lie on their resumes to get ahead and that is why every source on the matter state that majority of resumes out there have lies in them.

 

[Soulshine]

Originally Posted by rach2jlc

Agreed. Nevertheless, my point (in support of your earlier one which was jumped onto by ektaylor) was that the lie is to put themselves ahead of somebody else, from the start, and as such his argument about the "hurting of humanity's forlorn thorn-crowning" or whatever doesn't really hold up, or at the very least would do no convincing to the people who are doing the deed. At most, it just preaches to the choir.

I found his argument almost comically idealistic and out-of-date; I agree with his concern over misrepresentation, but also think that the way he describes humanity's "progress" and mankind sounds like something from ancient Greece, or written from well within a secluded ivory tower, basically neglecting every historic event that happened from 1868 until, well, about four minutes ago. Down in the "trenches," life ain't so insular and reasonable.

The way to prevent misrepresentation is (1) to describe accurately what misrepresentation is, (2) to explain the seriousness of the documents which are often misrepresented and (3) to point out the REAL risks involved to one's future for misrepresentation. I think, doing these three in an organized, clear fashion will get rid of the majority of the problem. Again, though, you'll always have the outliers who get off on the lie itself.

Can you appreciate (not approve) someone who does lie to hopefully get their dream job whatever that may be? Not everyone has the same advantages as others and some people need to lie or feel compelled to lie to have a shot at what they want in life.

 

[rach2jlc]

Originally Posted by Soulshine

Can you appreciate (not approve) someone who does lie to hopefully get their dream job whatever that may be? Not everyone has the same advantages as others and some people need to lie or feel compelled to lie to have a shot at what they want in life.
Um, no. I was willing to defend part of your argument, but not this. This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever and I must have misread your other posts if this was your viewpoint from the start. There are so many problems with this kind of enabling, dangerous justification I really don't know where to begin.

edit; maybe I was a little too harsh on ektaylor.