300 Trailer is up!

Originally Posted by Étienne

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It's a little more complicated than that. The Greeks claimed at the time to be fighting for a common love for freedom and the rule of law, as opposed to absolutism and tyranny, which they attributed to Persia. Not for "democracy" per se, but at least against tyranny (it became customary later on in Greece to distinguish at least three classes of regimes, tyranny, oligarchy and democracy, the latter two sponsored respectively by Sparta and Athens). The Spartans were particularly adamant in their utmost respect for the laws and for equality. Of course, nowadays people point out petty facts like the fact that much of "Spartan law" was unwritten custom which gave the ephors enormous powers of interpretation, or the fact that their "equality" was the equality of a few thousands full-fledged citizens oppressing tens of thousands of underlings in various classes. Still, that is what they claimed and I am convinced they were sincere in much of that propaganda.
Err, I know that Etienne My point is that people think that ancient Greece = Athenian democracy. Part of the reason I think many also latched on to that rubbish from the film. And yes there were things that you could call "equality" between full Lacedaimonians. But no explicit democracy. Remember that they were also instrumental in placing the puppet government of the *30* Tyrants in Athens after the end of the Peloponnesian wars...

A couple ridiculous things that I didn't like:

The persians were portrayed as gluttonous, androgynous and homosexual, and the army men disfigured. The good guys were buff, oiled up white guys.

"Freedom isn't free." Can't believe they actually said that.

As mentioned earlier, the horrible, horrible music.

I found that the political allegory the book tries to make is much more like America : Persia :: <Random Country America is Invading to Take Natural Resources> : Sparta. I think it fuled some racism and some hetero superiority ****, being that the good guys were all Zeus-incarnate (or Apollo.. I forgot which one is the greek name).

While I don't give a **** whatsoever if it's historically accurate, I am enjoying what I'm learning from this thread.

Well, they're planning a Watchmen movie, the director and producers of 300. I think THAT looks more promising than this.

Originally Posted by Brian SD

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I found that the political allegory the book tries to make is much more like America : Persia :: <Random Country America is Invading to Take Natural Resources> : Sparta. I think it fuled some racism and some hetero superiority ****, being that the good guys were all Zeus-incarnate (or Apollo.. I forgot which one is the greek name).

The movie was pretty much a direct replica of the comic which came out in 1998. Maybe Frank Miller knew what would happen in 2001 and then 2003 and wrote about his premonitions as a political message.

Originally Posted by skalogre

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Part of the reason I think many also latched on to that rubbish from the film.
What rubbish exactly? Obviously I have not seen the film yet (it premieres only tomorrow here in Paris). But in the comic there is no confusion made. The Spartans repetedly claim to be fighting for Greek freedom against Persian tyranny. I don't recall any talk of "democracy", it is precisely "freedom". And that is perfectly acccurate.

And yes there were things that you could call "equality" between full Lacedaimonians.

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"Things that you could call 'equality'"? Are you kidding? Among full-fledged Spartans, equality is the very basis of the Spartan Myth. Hence the laws against gold and silver metals use, against the decoration of houses, the system of the public plot of land. In fact that's why they were so admired by the French revolutionnaries in the 18th century, who obviously ignored most of the other aspects of Spartan custom and law.

But no explicit democracy. Remember that they were also instrumental in placing the puppet government of the *30* Tyrants in Athens after the end of the Peloponnesian wars...

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Of course not democracy. They advocate oligarchy, traditionally, against tyranny as well as democracy. But I don't see anything else in the comic... Again, my point is that the comic (and I suppose the film) makes no efforts to be historically accurate in the details. The battles have no realism whatsoever, and so on. It claims to be faithful to the Greek (and Spartan) propaganda of the time. Hence the use of lines taken from Plutarch, hence the representation of hoplits the way the Greek themselves represented them (as nude armourless heroes), hence the claim to be fighting for "Greek freedom", and so on.

Originally Posted by Étienne

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What rubbish exactly? Obviously I have not seen the film yet (it premieres only tomorrow here in Paris). But in the comic there is no confusion made. The Spartans repetedly claim to be fighting for Greek freedom against Persian tyranny. I don't recall any talk of "democracy", it is precisely "freedom". And that is perfectly acccurate. "Things that you could call 'equality'"? Are you kidding? Among full-fledged Spartans, equality is the very basis of the Spartan Myth. Hence the laws against gold and silver metals use, against the decoration of houses, the system of the public plot of land. In fact that's why they were so admired by the French revolutionnaries in the 18th century, who obviously ignored most of the other aspects of Spartan custom and law. Of course not democracy. They advocate oligarchy, traditionally, against tyranny as well as democracy. But I don't see anything else in the comic... Again, my point is that the comic (and I suppose the film) makes no efforts to be historically accurate in the details. The battles have no realism whatsoever, and so on. It claims to be faithful to the Greek (and Spartan) propaganda of the time. Hence the use of lines taken from Plutarch, hence the representation of hoplits the way the Greek themselves represented them (as nude armourless heroes), hence the claim to be fighting for "Greek freedom", and so on.
For the rubbish I am talking about how so many people latched on to this being something pro-democracy and freedom when the realisty was that there was no such concept in Sparta. I do not know if there is any specific mention of democracy in the film. It was universally reviled; was another thing that showed that the Athenians especially were fruity weaklings compared to the Spartan way. The best way to view this is to read the other side's propaganda about the Spartans during the Peloponnesian wars, Periclis Funeral Oration where the concept of the Athenian conscript citizen soldier as oppossed to the state-owned militarised populace is extholled. I am sure you know what I am talking about. The equality in Sparta was more akin to communism than anything else frankly. There was little real freedom other than within your station. The ones at the top were of course in a different situation and the helots, well, I doubt I need to say anything. Remember what democracy means literally: demos is the populace, the citizenship; kratos means nation and/or rule. Rule of the people. From the first laws put in by Lykourgos (at least according to tradition) the Spartan ideal was subjugation to the state authority and discipline... Where the Lakedaimonians were clearly ahead of the times was their treatment of women. That is something that used to horrify the "barbarians" and the other Greek states.... P.s. you seem to forget that for the majority of filmgoers this is a completely alien subject anyway. Not many would be as knowledgeable as you and many others on this forum... I don't know how much history is emphasized in the school system in France; it was certainly something that we spent a lot of time on back home while from talking to people here in the States, it is almost an afterthought in public schools, like mathematics (please correct me if I am wrong)...

Originally Posted by skalogre

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P.s. you seem to forget that for the majority of filmgoers this is a completely alien subject anyway. Not many would be as knowledgeable as you and many others on this forum...
I don't know how much history is emphasized in the school system in France; it was certainly something that we spent a lot of time on back home while from talking to people here in the States, it is almost an afterthought in public schools, like mathematics (please correct me if I am wrong)...

You think mathematics and history are an afterthought in American public schools? What do you think children learn in public schools - basketweaving?

Originally Posted by briancl

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The movie was pretty much a direct replica of the comic which came out in 1998. Maybe Frank Miller knew what would happen in 2001 and then 2003 and wrote about his premonitions as a political message.

Miller is Nostradamus! OMG, it all makes sense!

Jon.

Originally Posted by odoreater

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You think mathematics and history are an afterthought in American public schools? What do you think children learn in public schools - basketweaving?
Hey, I am going by what I have been told so far by people I have talked to. How much emphasis is placed on such subjects, past the bare minimum (i.e. not just electives but compulsory)?

Originally Posted by skalogre

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Hey, I am going by what I have been told so far by people I have talked to. How much emphasis is placed on such subjects, past the bare minimum (i.e. not just electives but compulsory)?

As far as I know (and I went through the public school system in the United States - New Jersey to be more specific - from beginning to end), there is math and history course that is compulsory every single year.

Math starts with basic arithmetic and progresses through various levels of more advanced math (calculus, trigonometry, etc.). All of these are compulsory. In fact, 95% of the curriculum (again, in my experience) is compulsory (with varying levels based on ability, for example, regular history, honors history, advanced placement history, etc.).

As far as history, there is a heavy emphasis on US history, with world history having a smaller role.

I think there is a perception among many Europeans that American kids don't learn anything in school. I've been exposed to European systems, and my perception is that they teach various subjects to children without much regard for whether the children are learning. In other words, a European child can say "I was taught the same type of math they teach in Grade 9 in the United States when I was in fourth grade." What they can't say is "I learned the type of math that is taught in Grade 9 in the United States in the fourth grade."

I'm still trying to figure out though, if you didn't think that they taught math and history in public school in the US, what did you think they taught?

Originally Posted by odoreater

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As far as I know (and I went through the public school system in the United States - New Jersey to be more specific - from beginning to end), there is math and history course that is compulsory every single year. Math starts with basic arithmetic and progresses through various levels of more advanced math (calculus, trigonometry, etc.). All of these are compulsory. In fact, 95% of the curriculum (again, in my experience) is compulsory (with varying levels based on ability, for example, regular history, honors history, advanced placement history, etc.). As far as history, there is a heavy emphasis on US history, with world history having a smaller role. I think there is a perception among many Europeans that American kids don't learn anything in school. I've been exposed to European systems, and my perception is that they teach various subjects to children without much regard for whether the children are learning. In other words, a European child can say "I was taught the same type of math they teach in Grade 9 in the United States when I was in fourth grade." What they can't say is "I learned the type of math that is taught in Grade 9 in the United States in the fourth grade." I'm still trying to figure out though, if you didn't think that they taught math in history in public school in the US, what did you think they taught?
What I said is that both have a lesser role as compared to say english and related subjects. The constant news reports HERE on the quality of teaching and lack of quality math and science education in the public school system are what also corraborate this perception. As for the taught versus learned, I can tell you that while I understand your point, in my case the mathematics and physics education was certainly more rigorous in schools I attended. It was not like there was a difference in quality between the locals and non-locals students in any university level courses I attended, as you mention the learned versus taught thing. Calculus and more advanced algebra were certainly compulsory, I only hit stumbling blocks when I started University-level math classes due to the fact that I had been away from a classroom in the army for two years then had to try and remember everything again (now that was hard, hated it)... Anyway, my point was not to discuss the merits of public school systems but to make the observation that world history is not something I have heard from any USA public school-educated friends or acquaintansces as being given any real time other than being skimmed over or maybe as an elective. P.s. this is the first time I heard from anyone something about math past agebra and some basic calculus being mandatory. For whatever reason, our anecdotal evidence differs. Is this stuff actually standardised by anyone or is every localised school system free to do and teach whatever it wants?

Originally Posted by skalogre

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P.s. this is the first time I heard from anyone something about math past agebra and some basic calculus being mandatory. For whatever reason, our anecdotal evidence differs. Is this stuff actually standardised by anyone or is every localised school system free to do and teach whatever it wants?

It varies state-by-state usually. New Jersey is known as having one of the strongest public school systems in the country, so that might account for some of the difference in what you've heard.

In any case, I agree with you in that I don't think 99% of the people watching that movie give a crap about whether this really happened or didn't happen or whether or not there were Thespians or Arcadians there or that they can pick out Sparta, or even Greece on a map.

I understand your complaints about its historical accuracy, but at the end of the day, most people don't care one way or the other - probably because the actual history of what happened at that, or any other ancient battle, is largely insignificant today.

I was at the chicago vintage poster show this weekend. held in the wonderful chicago cultural center.

I found myself talking to the owner of a shop that specializes in military posters. a woman, probrably in her fifties, came by the stand.

from her questions, it was obvious that she had no knowledge of the history of europe in the first half of the 20th century, to the extent of not being aware there had been a spanish civil war, not knowing what side italy fought in the begining of the war, not knowing that germany declared war on the US in wwii, and not knowing about the Lusitania (which was more understandable)

this was a highly cultural event, in a small cultural center, with a $15 entry fee. I am pretty sure this woman is upper middle class, with a college degree. her english was native level.


go figure.

Originally Posted by globetrotter

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I was at the chicago vintage poster show this weekend. held in the wonderful chicago cultural center. I found myself talking to the owner of a shop that specializes in military posters. a woman, probrably in her fifties, came by the stand. from her questions, it was obvious that she had no knowledge of the history of europe in the first half of the 20th century, to the extent of not being aware there had been a spanish civil war, not knowing what side italy fought in the begining of the war, not knowing that germany declared war on the US in wwii, and not knowing about the Lusitania (which was more understandable) this was a highly cultural event, in a small cultural center, with a $15 entry fee. I am pretty sure this woman is upper middle class, with a college degree. her english was native level. go figure.
I have a stranger story. Required English literature/composition class at University (around 1997) . Was a special freshman class that put together foreign students (such as myself) and local students (English classes at that level were separated). Anyway, one of the texts had to do with the Vietnam war and its perception nowadays. Well, much to my amazement as the instructor went initially around the - smallish - class asking people to give their opinion about what the conflict meant, the local students either said they did not know or (IIRC) said that they were not sure about the reasons other than going in to fight communists (something like that). The discussion from that point on was mostly between the instructor and a bunch of foreigners I would have thought that of all the things people would know at least something about, it would have been such a defining moment in USA's history that was just, what, 35 or so years ago? Really strange... Don't know if this is indeed representative, you people that have grown up here can give me a better idea of that (as in whether that is something rerpresentative or not).

It's a little joke we play on you foreigners. We act dumb and ignorant whenever you're around.