Sierra Trading Post - on the bad list

You're lucky. Many stores now ban people who return too much stuff.

Originally Posted by marin

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I want to know how the OP finds -- and tolerates -- the time to return 75% of purchases from a store he regularly frequents. I think I would have started consulting STP customer service or given up long ago.

Now, that sounds like my wife wondering what the hell is all this crap?

Originally Posted by gdl203

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I have one question for you jhcam8 as I'm really curious now. The note says "over 75%". What's the actual number? 77%? 90%?

Haven't a clue - it seems to me that they have the numbers and if they are, in fact, focusing on one customer why not say what it is? 67.9%? 53.4? 77.6? 99.9? Why say 'average' - which can mean several things - again, they have the numbers and the thing speaks for itself. They also don't identify the time frame - a month, quarter, year?

Here's an example: I bought 2 pr of pants for 50 and 56 and a suit for 281. The pants fit and I liked the material, color, weight and so forth. The suit required too much tailoring to make it cost effective and I wasn't crazy about it after I saw it anyway. I kept the pants and had them hemmed. I returned the suit. So, 106/387 = 27.4% kept - pretty close to the 75% return 'average' if that's what they're talking about - or another way to look at it is that I kept 2/3 of the order.

On another order I bought 4 pr of pants, 2 of the same brand and all my normal size (none of them fit); also 2 sport coats - one didn't fit and I didn't like the material on the other; and 2 t-shirts which were fine. Returning the unsatisfactory items certainly put a dent in my kept:returned ratio. I also had a string of suit and sportcoat orders that were a fairly high dollar amount - I ordered my normal size - and none of them fit.

Originally Posted by TC11201

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Sorry, but I'm not as disturbed by the OPs behavior as everyone else seems to be. STPs business model is a catalog / internet model - other than their few warehouse stores, they do not incur the massive costs associated with bricks and mortar operations (and for most retailers, cost of real estate is easily the largest of their p&l items, usually by multiples of the next largest expense category). Returns are not only a part of retailing, but are, in this case, an even greater requirement given their business model (and the huge potential for scalability and reach that they have that B&M retailers simply don't, at least not without incurring more enormous expansion costs).

The OP does incur a cost when he returns items (shipping) - it may not be enough to cover restocking, but it is a fee that STP themselves set and the OP (as far as I can tell) returns his stuff according to a policy that they created. If their own policies aren't working for them, they should amend the policies, not ask customers to change behavior that is fully within the policies that they set. I'd also point out that almost all B&M retailers (and I know that there are exceptions, but not many for clothing purchases), including the various discounters, take returns without any cost to the customer / purchaser. As long as what STP charges covers shipping (which it likely does given the scale of their mail-order operation), then their costs of restocking the returns should actually be much lower than the costs incurred by a B&M retailer with many locations b/c inventory mgmt is much more difficult and expensive in a retail network with lots of locations (gotta optimize inventory not only at an aggregate level, but by store as well; STP has everything sent to a single massive warehouse - which is simpler and much cheaper to manage).

All that said, I didn't find STPs note too snarky, other than that last line - someone ought to find a better way to express that sentiment - there seems to be a barely veiled threat. My two cents...

Now that you bring it up, STP encourages buying or trying more via their Shipping/Return pricing. E.g., if I buy something that puts the shipping cost at the max, then there's no reason for me not to throw on a few more items to try, esp. if I'm ordering 2 sizes anyway because I know that I'll be returning at least one and paying the same return price if it's 1 or 5 items.

A quick review of shipping and return pricing and policies online turns up a wide range amongst retailers. As TC11201 observes, elementary marketing and pricing strategies can change customer behavior.

Originally Posted by BrooklynWeGoHard

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how about they invest in a tape measure? their sizing is often incorrect, and furthermore - they only list the length of suit jackets - not actual chest size, sleeve lengths, shoulders, etc. thanks guys

Originally Posted by damienos

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My 2 cents.
Why say "If you are not happy with your purchase for any reason, please return it to us for a full refund or exchange." ?

and what constitutes abuse? Whose responsibility is it to make sure the item fits? the customers? or the shop's?

I just had a very pleasant buying experience at Pediwear,a shoe retailer out of the UK.
They do not confirm sales until they are sure you are getting what you want.

After the order is made, they send you an automated response that a further email will be sent.
I then got an email from a real person asking if I was sure of the size. After confirming that it was, they proceeded with the order.

All this was done to prevent 'abuse' of a return policy, DURING the transaction stage.

From my point of view, its all about expectations.

IF you advertise 100% satisfaction you stand by it.

If they are able to flag the OP as a customer as someone who returns 75%, then they can send an email before the next transaction to further satisfy the customer.

And I do not think STP loses money on returns.
A returned item is restocked and resold. The restocking cost is minimal.

Don't forget, there is also cost to the customer. The waiting, the anticipation and the trouble and time to go to the post office,etc. His money could be used somewhere where he really gets 100% satisfaction with no need to return. All this in intangible I think

We see here, on the SF, nearly daily, someone re-selling a coat or shoes or something that he bought that doesn't quite fit after the seller posts several pictures, fit pics, every measurement known to man and people still end up with something that doesn't quite fit or looks the way he thought it would.

As Brooklyn points out the measurements on STP are lacking. I think they try, but a lot of their merchandise is a season or two past and is bought by them because it didn't sell for reasons of style, color, fabric, or fit perhaps.

Those who think that asking their customer service for fit information would be useful in limiting returns probably have not tried it. I seem to recall once asking something about an item and when they checked and got back to me 3 days later my size was sold out. It's not like the stuff's hanging in the office and they can run over and look at it.

On ordering: I've ordered a pr of pants and it took 10-14 days to get. They didn't fit. I called to try another size and they were sold out. This happens more often than not so I'm inclined to buy a few pair to try. I just did that w/some Levi's - 2 501's and 1 505 - one of the 501's didn't fit and I returned it.

Originally Posted by acidicboy

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I'm more interested in finding out the reasons he's returning them. At that amount he implied, is he using all of them, or is he reselling them and returning the ones not sold? Or is this a habitual thing?

Hard to resell STP merchandise because everyone can easily check it - so, no, I'm not trying to flip STP items. Returns are for the reasons stated above.

These threads always get boring after a while so I'll just say that my main gripe was the clumsily worded letter and the assumption that I'm dissatisfied w/the company. I'm not even overly dissatisfied w/the merchandise. I, and many of you, can think of a much more elegant letter that would accomplish their assumed purpose better (I say 'assumed' because the thing is so unclear that we're really guessing as to their meaning). That letter sounds like they're dunning a debtor who's behind on payments.

I'd rather have them tell me that they don't want me for a customer - I'm really indifferent.
Regardless, I can't get my head around that last sentence which makes no sense at all unless, perhaps, they were selling health supplements or medical devices.

As always your comments were interesting and passed the time - which is all we're really doing, isn't it?

The only part of the last sentence I don't get is "for you": "A continuation of your past dissatisfaction level is not healthy for you or for us." It's like free financial advice from someone with a streak of preacher. What is not healthy about buying things & returning them? It sounds like they suspect you have a (cough, cough) spending problem. The rest of the sentence says that returns are killing them. I agree it's a clumsy letter. They want to be L.L. Bean but they operate like Yoox and they are trapped and still working out the details of what is probably not such a good-looking business model at the moment. I would agree that measurements would help, but that would add considerably to their cost. More likely their business model is just not good for moving tailored clothing. Who buys that stuff on deep discount with paltry descriptive information? Devil customers, that's who: guys who work very hard to get the best deal & thus know their way around a return policy. STP's price-bouncing must discourage the people who will buy stuff and keep it because they are too lazy to make the return: it's too much work to get something at a good price from STP. Any returning customer knows the price is going to change by the end of the week. Do you really want it that much, that you will check back three times a month? I buy things from them often & have returned quite a bit (but not enough to get this letter). The Lambourne pants had one cut in one year and the next, a very different cut. Often the customer is not at fault for a return, by any stretch of the imagination. As a buyer, it's like dealing with Yoox or eBay. You never know if you will get what you think you are getting, even when you are familiar with makers and models and lines and sizing. I've more or less sworn off STP because the price fluctuations + inadequate information (e.g., which model/year of jacket is this?) + the growing suspicion that some of this stuff is made-(more cheaply)-for-STP (e.g., the Southwick suits) makes the savings not worth the headache of the uncertainties.

Originally Posted by dport86

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I can only point to all the selfish guys who were abusing Costco's generous return policy by constantly bringing back 6 mo. to 2 year old TVs whenever a cheaper or better model came out. guess what happened to the great return policy we all wanted to rely on? gone.


Costco's return policy isn't gone.

Originally Posted by Dewey

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As a buyer, it's like dealing with Yoox or eBay. You never know if you will get what you think you are getting, even when you are familiar with makers and models and lines and sizing.

I've more or less sworn off STP because the price fluctuations + inadequate information (e.g., which model/year of jacket is this?) + the growing suspicion that some of this stuff is made-(more cheaply)-for-STP (e.g., the Southwick suits) makes the savings not worth the headache of the uncertainties.
definitely

yeah, their stuff is often NOT marked correctly for tailored clothes

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The part that troubles me here is that the STP doesn't even carry a very wide range of clothes, but rather the same few brands month after month. After a few orders, you should have a good idea of your size in the brand/maker

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You would think but you might well be wrong.

Several months ago, I bought several suits -- all from the same well-respected maker, same model and, ostensibly, the same size. I took them to my tailor to have them altered. I was in a bit of a hurry so, after he marked up the first one, I suggested that he just alter the other suits the same way. After he'd had a good laugh, he laid out the pants, one on top of the other, and demonstrated that every single one was a different size. The waists were fairly similar but the rest of the cut varied enormously, sometimes as much as an inch. He explained that a lot of makers, especially good ones that expect you to have their clothes properly tailored, don't worry too much about precision since every person wearing it will need to have the fit customized anyway. He said that this was particulary true with pants but that even jackets often showed surprising variation.

So the weird sizing probably isn't STP's fault. Now that I think about it, it can't be their fault as they just pass along the sizing information as provided by the manufacturer.

But 75% is way too much. Maybe you ought to buy a bunch of socks or something to get your average down.

Originally Posted by Bounder

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Several months ago, I bought several suits -- all from the same well-respected maker, same model and, ostensibly, the same size. I took them to my tailor to have them altered. I was in a bit of a hurry so, after he marked up the first one, I suggested that he just alter the other suits the same way. After he'd had a good laugh, he laid out the pants, one on top of the other, and demonstrated that every single one was a different size. The waists were fairly similar but the rest of the cut varied enormously, sometimes as much as an inch. He explained that a lot of makers, especially good ones that expect you to have their clothes properly tailored, don't worry too much about precision since every person wearing it will need to have the fit customized anyway. He said that this was particulary true with pants but that even jackets often showed surprising variation.
Good story. Anyone with a taste for tailored clothes -- who buys plaid sport coats and all the other high-end dandy gear they stock at STP -- is going to be fussy about fit. LL Bean & Lands' End sell t-shirts and plastic shoes & boots and backpacks and casual trousers. The tailored stuff there is like Jos. A. Bank, so structured it's going to look the same way on most everyone. The higher-end tailored clothing on STP requires tailoring to look good, and people who buy a lot of this stuff know there is not so great a margin of error. Tailors can't fix everything, and even at discount prices, a lot of that stuff is too expensive to fool around with. If you spend $600 on a jacket, even if the MSRP is $2000, you are not going to keep it if you know it will still look screwy once your tailor has tweaked it for you. It's not at all like buying $15 polos and $50 chinos.

75% is insane. I thought when I read this letter they were going to ban you like sprint did awhile back. They got some management consultants that found 80% of their complaints came from a select group of overly difficult customers, so they sent them all letters saying "you're contract has been terminated, don't come back"

Originally Posted by jhcam8

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Here's an example: I bought 2 pr of pants for 50 and 56 and a suit for 281. The pants fit and I liked the material, color, weight and so forth. The suit required too much tailoring to make it cost effective and I wasn't crazy about it after I saw it anyway. I kept the pants and had them hemmed. I returned the suit. So, 106/387 = 27.4% kept - pretty close to the 75% return 'average' if that's what they're talking about - or another way to look at it is that I kept 2/3 of the order.

On another order I bought 4 pr of pants, 2 of the same brand and all my normal size (none of them fit); also 2 sport coats - one didn't fit and I didn't like the material on the other; and 2 t-shirts which were fine. Returning the unsatisfactory items certainly put a dent in my kept:returned ratio. I also had a string of suit and sportcoat orders that were a fairly high dollar amount - I ordered my normal size - and none of them fit.

These threads always get boring after a while so I'll just say that my main gripe was the clumsily worded letter and the assumption that I'm dissatisfied w/the company. I'm not even overly dissatisfied w/the merchandise. I, and many of you, can think of a much more elegant letter that would accomplish their assumed purpose better (I say 'assumed' because the thing is so unclear that we're really guessing as to their meaning). That letter sounds like they're dunning a debtor who's behind on payments.

I'd rather have them tell me that they don't want me for a customer - I'm really indifferent.
Regardless, I can't get my head around that last sentence which makes no sense at all unless, perhaps, they were selling health supplements or medical devices.

As always your comments were interesting and passed the time - which is all we're really doing, isn't it?

This makes alot of sense, with the exception of the part in bold of course...

Originally Posted by NukeMeSlowly

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Costco's return policy isn't gone.

Actually, it is. It didn't used to be 90 days. It used to be double the manufacturer's warranty, which could be up to 2 years. People (on TV forums, yes, they exist) were openly bragging about upgrading to new TV's several times within the "warranty" period.

Originally Posted by dport86

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Actually, it is. It didn't used to be 90 days. It used to be double the manufacturer's warranty, which could be up to 2 years. People (on TV forums, yes, they exist) were openly bragging about upgrading to new TV's several times within the "warranty" period.

Just to add to this, I knew a kid in school that did this with a computer from Costco. Every time I ran into him he had a brand new one, I think Circuit City had a similar policy with their goods.

I know businesses account for these leakages, sometimes rather than completely rework their policy they can deal with a small percentage of "repeat offenders" through letters like these.

My final comments: I cancelled the STP Dealflyer emails a couple months ago - which are sent daily - because I realized that I was going to the site out of habit. Now, I don't remember to go there.

I finally heard back from Bernie and a couple AIG traders. They all advised that I not cop to causing the meltdown.

Browsing and buying is soooooo 2008 - except on the SF, of course.

Originally Posted by dport86

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Actually, it is. It didn't used to be 90 days. It used to be double the manufacturer's warranty, which could be up to 2 years. People (on TV forums, yes, they exist) were openly bragging about upgrading to new TV's several times within the "warranty" period.

Oh, I see. You were referring to the electronics. My major concern is my Dyson vacuum cleaner so I was thinking along those lines.

The letter seems reasonable enough to me. I've always had great service from STP and appreciate they're liberal return policy. I'd hate to see it get changed.

Sierra Trading Post is incredibly rude and ridiculous. As stated, many things fit completely differently regardless of size. If you go into a department store, you may easily "return" 75% of what you try on back on the racks, until you choose just the right thing. Can you imagine a store expecting to stay in business if they limited how many things you could try on before you had to make a purchase? They would not stay in business very long.

Why so many people have attacked the poster is beyond me. I agree that these are very shoddy business practices. If STP doesn't like returns then all they need to do is state clearly what their acceptable return policy is. For people who obey their rules, it's uncalled for to send them a nasty letter as the poster received. What happened to "customer satisfaction?" Most online stores expect returns and are required by law to accept them since people can't buy things until they see them, try them on, and see if they fit. Why try to put consumer protection back in the dark ages? Think about that for one minute. Consumer rights have been hard won and no online retailer has to get in or stay in the business unless they agree to follow the law and provide their own return policies. Simple enough.