Pls explain European universities to me

I'm pretty adept at understanding the US university system.

How does it work in the UK and EU (and Commonwealth, for that matter).

It's my understanding that tuition is much much much cheaper. Is entrance much harder as well? Or can basically anyone go somewhere? Do a lot of people flunk out? Even if you're paying (the equivalent of) a few thousand dollars a year, is the government paying the rest? Even at private universities, is the government subsidizing the education?

Or, are US universities 'better', and that's why they cost more?

Also, during one of the UK elections, I remember some student shouting at Tony Blair about 'top up fees' and how that was a big election issue.

FWIW, I think Harvard's undergrad tuition is about $33,000 per year.

Cambridge is about $5,250.

Who's paying the difference?

Originally Posted by crazyquik

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FWIW, I think Harvard's undergrad tuition is about $33,000 per year.

Cambridge is about $5,250.

Who's paying the difference?

Piobaire.

It depends on the country, but they generally have sets of standardized tests that determine eligibility. Some schools are free, some aren't.

Having spent my first year of undergrad in Athens, I can tell you that entrance exams there are not that difficult. It is also relatively cheaper than universities in Canada and the U.S. As long as you have money and can speak English, you're pretty much set. The latter isn't even that necessary really.

ETA: In terms of quality, I would say it depends on the program. For example, my university was known to scale grades like crazy.

Originally Posted by crazyquik

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FWIW, I think Harvard's undergrad tuition is about $33,000 per year.

Cambridge is about $5,250.

Who's paying the difference?

That's actually cheap compared to other private institutions in the US with far less, or even no academic credibility.

Yes, the government is usually paying most of the cost. This includes Oxford and Cambridge, which aren't really private. They have their own endowments but mostly rely on government subsidies. In that respect, they are not all that different from public universities in the United States. For example, the fees in the (excellent) UC system were fairly low until the state of California ran out of money and stopped subsidizing it as much as before.

Having said this, money is indeed the single most important factor in determining the quality of an educational system. The more you have, the smaller you can make your classes, and the more fruitful the teacher-student interaction. The better US universities spend far more money on a per student basis than most European universities.

Overpriced private college education is one of the biggest problems with this country. I'm not being hyperbolic - I know we have lots of issues in this country, but I think the cost of private higher education and relative quality of public education is a big issue going forward.

I grew up in Massachusetts - home to Harvard, MIT, Amherst, Boston College, Boston University, Wellesley, Brandeis, Tufts, Williams, and other quite competitive private universities.

With good grades and competitive test scores, I was able to apply to and eventually attended one of those schools (relax, not Harvard or MIT) and I had to pay too much money to do it. Why? Because our public education options were not nearly up to private standards in my state.

Residents in California, Michigan, North Carolina, and Virginia are lucky because they have competitive state schools that cost less. Applying and matriculating from out of state would cost me less than private university, but not nearly the savings of staying in-state to attend school.

In retrospect, I know that I paid too much for college and didn't get enough out of it. But I don't know if the alternative - attending a less competitive, more affordable state school - would have put me in a better position.

Blank, nice rant you really addressed the topic in the op

My brother goes to Harvey Mudd where the tuition is normally 51,000 per year, but since it's such a small college it wasn't as difficult to get a large scholarship to lower the price to about that of a UC. UCs now have very little money for scholarships so privates are actually looking much better because they don't depend on state funding.

I thought this would be more about course differences and structures, but it is just another welfare state question, eh?

OK, Australia:

Originally Posted by crazyquik

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It's my understanding that tuition is much much much cheaper.

Yes. No up-front costs. In my day, that was it. Students now pay an additional tax (HECS) of a few thousand per year of study, once their income exceeds a certain level, until this debt is repaid.

Originally Posted by crazyquik

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Is entrance much harder as well?

Entrance to a competitive department (medicine, vet science, dentistry, etc.) is based entirely on testing results and high school. Not ability to pay, connections, charitable involvement or sporting abilities.

Originally Posted by crazyquik

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Do a lot of people flunk out?

At a guess, I'd say yes - similar rates to the US

Originally Posted by crazyquik

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Even at private universities, is the government subsidizing the education?

No. Which may be why there are so few private uni's and their academic quality is so poor.

Originally Posted by crazyquik

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Or, are US universities 'better'

No. But the good US uni's are no worse than the good Australian ones.

Originally Posted by Bhowie

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Blank, nice rant you really addressed the topic in the op

I aim to please!

Originally Posted by JustinW

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Entrance to a competitive department (medicine, vet science, dentistry, etc.) is based entirely on testing results and high school. Not ability to pay, connections, charitable involvement or sporting abilities.

In Canada, entrance to competitive undergraduate programs is based primarily on high school performance. College sports are a non-entity. Graduate school (including medicine) and law school are different animals. I attended one of the better universities in Canada (Queen's), one of the top universities in the States for my doctorate (Caltech), and then did postdoctoral work at Harvard before coming here (WSU).

Based on 17 years of experience both the US and Canadian systems, I'd say that the larger Canadian Universities offer education on par with the top 50 universities in the States. A large number of US institutions are, to be candid, glorified community colleges. By-and-large, there are no analogous institutions in Canada. The flip side is that there are no Canadian universities that compare to powerhouses like an MIT or a Harvard in terms of attracting raw talent, whether you are talking about students or faculty.

As I understand it, drop out rates are a little lower in Canada, but again, the variation between institutions is also much lower than in the States.

Originally Posted by LA Guy

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In Canada, entrance to competitive undergraduate programs is based primarily on high school performance. College sports are a non-entity. Graduate school (including medicine) and law school are different animals. I attended one of the better universities in Canada (Queen's), one of the top universities in the States for my doctorate (Caltech), and then did postdoctoral work at Harvard before coming here (WSU).

Based on 17 years of experience both the US and Canadian systems, I'd say that the larger Canadian Universities offer education on par with the top 50 universities in the States. A large number of US institutions are, to be candid, glorified community colleges. By-and-large, there are no analogous institutions in Canada. The flip side is that there are no Canadian universities that compare to powerhouses like an MIT or a Harvard in terms of attracting raw talent, whether you are talking about students or faculty.

As I understand it, drop out rates are a little lower in Canada, but again, the variation between institutions is also much lower than in the States.

I would call you out for answering a question that nobody asked, but I'm Canadian too..
Yes, the quality of universities in Canada is quite high and fairly uniform throughout the country. I'd argue that specific programs e.g. Waterloo engineering/compsci could hold a candle to against their respective powerhouse rivals.

Back on topic: european universities are heavily subsidized. That's why they have such high tax rates. It's a very socialist way of life. I think if you were to attend, however, you would pay the international student rates which could easily double or triple tuition. At least, that's what I remember seeing a few years back when I was looking to apply.

There are no uniform laws across EU countries, and the UK is an entirely different beast. I have a friend going to Cambridge at the moment, so maybe I can ask him how it works over there.

In France tuition is heavily subsidized by the government, as are student housing and meals. The only you things for which you tend to pay full price are textbooks. Otherwise, tuition will run you about 500€ per year, you can get an HLM apartment for around 200€/mo after the CAF, and meals are around 2-3€ each in student cafeterias. Not too shabby. On the other hand, scholarships awarded for merit are very rare and difficult to obtain, but those awarded for financial need are practically given away.

The side effect of making education so easily obtainable is that degrees became somewhat devalued. When everyone you know has at least a bac+3 (bachelor's degree) and plenty have bac+5 (master's degree), it's hard to assign as much value to these accomplishments. There is thus a huge amount of competition among students to get into the best schools in Paris, especially Paris VI (Jussieu) and IV (Sorbonne), to distinguish themselves. There is also an immense drive to get ever-more advanced degrees. Contrast this with a country like Canada, which has the lowest post-graduate enrolment rate of any OECD country.

To compensate, the French have created the system of 'les grandes à coles', elite institutions that are extremely exigent in terms of who they recruit and brutal in terms of curricula and workload. They include places like Sciences Po and the ENA, a degree from the latter of which is quasi-essential to have a career as a high-level government functionary. In order to get in, you need to spend a year or two doing a preparatory program before applying, plus jump through some other hoops I'm only dimly aware of since it's not something I've ever had to do. Either way, it's not easy. Etienne was thinking of applying at once point, I think, so maybe he can weigh in.

I find the whole thing interesting relative to the North American system, where tuition is ridiculously high but (increasingly insufficient) scholarships are given to A students with relative frequency. Since grades now are inflated to the point where anything below an A- is seen as an indelible blemish on a permanent record, however, I'm not sure how long that can last.