Tom Ford look?

[Professor Χάος]

The people I meet on SF are the only ones I know who wear suits. Beyond business casual, there's the covid crisis. Together, these trends have caused a decline in the sale of high end retail clothes by 30-50%.You would think that prices would decline more dramatically.

 

[dauster]

The people I meet on SF are the only ones I know who wear suits. Beyond business casual, there's the covid crisis. Together, these trends have caused a decline in the sale of high end retail clothes by 30-50%.You would think that prices would decline more dramatically.

I don't know about TF specifically but a lot of luxury old school retailers here in the US are struggling or already are bankrupt - NM (Chapter 11), Barneys (bankrupt), Brooks Bros. (bankrupt or close to) so it's not like there isn't any impact but what is TF supposed to do ?Sell their suits for $500? 50% off is always possible to find and if you look long enough you can find 70% off - once you can find a TF suit below 2k that's pretty damn good for me.

 

[Professor Χάος]

You can find plenty of NWT TF suits on the bay for $2K. So far, the stores that you mention have yet to promote fire sales, although if you visit some of them in person, you may be able to find great deals. I found a suit I want on the Italist, but $1.8K is outside of my price range. I have to wait until someone is desperate enough to sell TF for less. I suppose that's why I only have one. As I'm sure you know, Chapter 11 or bankruptcy, does not necessarily mean that a store is going out of business, it just means that their cashflow cannot cover their short term obligations (illiquidity) or that their total assets have a lower market value than their total obligations (technical bankruptcy). Such enterprises will declare bankruptcy to seek relief from their creditors, and can be sold or re-structured. My point is that unless we are talking about a small store, or one that is truly going out of business, fire sales are unlikely, since inventory comprises a significant portion of a store's non-cash flow assets (accruals).

 

[dauster]

You can find plenty of NWT TF suits on the bay for $2K. So far, the stores that you mention have yet to promote fire sales, although if you visit some of them in person, you may be able to find great deals. I found a suit I want on the Italist, but $1.8K is outside of my price range. I have to wait until someone is desperate enough to sell TF for less. I suppose that's why I only have one. As I'm sure you know, Chapter 11 or bankruptcy, does not necessarily mean that a store is going out of business, it just means that their cashflow cannot cover their short term obligations (illiquidity) or that their total assets have a lower market value than their total obligations (technical bankruptcy). Such enterprises will declare bankruptcy to seek relief from their creditors, and can be sold or re-structured. My point is that unless we are talking about a small store, or one that is truly going out of business, fire sales are unlikely, since inventory comprises a significant portion of a store's non-cash flow assets (accruals).

yeah I am aware what it means but I wasn't suggesting that they will/should have a fire sale only saying that it looks like these businesses are struggling - it does look like NM will reorganize and recover but surely their business is not booming.

 

[Professor Χάος]

I'm guessing you're in business or a corporate officer, otherwise, how can you afford to pay $2K+ for a suit.

I tried consulting for a while, just to learn about what is going on in the real world, but ultimately, it was not for me. TF is actually beyond my budget, but then again, so are all the other suits I own. However, at the moment TF's brand is exceptionally popular, so great deals are hard to find. I've seen an NWT Isaia sell for $250. I only saw this once, but it actually happened. I bought a NWT Zegna Milano for $425 a month ago, and Canalis can be found every now and then for a few hundred dollars. But TF? I have yet to see them below $1300, and that is an extremely rare occurence.

 

[dauster]

I'm guessing you're in business or a corporate officer, otherwise, how can you afford to pay $2K+ for a suit.

I tried consulting for a while, just to learn about what is going on in the real world, but ultimately, it was not for me. TF is actually beyond my budget, but then again, so are all the other suits I own. However, at the moment TF's brand is exceptionally popular, so great deals are hard to find. I've seen an NWT Isaia sell for $250. I only saw this once, but it actually happened. I bought a NWT Zegna Milano for $425 a month ago, and Canalis can be found every now and then for a few hundred dollars. But TF? I have yet to see them below $1300, and that is an extremely rare occurence.

I am in real estate... I buy on sale if it makes sense just bought a canali sports coat for $500 (70 % off) other than that I just like to browse around and occasionally I find great deals

 

[Professor Χάος]

That's interesting. How's business? I've read that many people are taking advantage of the historically low interest rates to re-finance or to buy new homes, while others are losing their homes altogether. I haven't researched specific markets, although major metropolitan areas seem to be performing poorly as people escape to the suburbs. Today the job market report indicated that the unemployment fell from 7.9% to 6.9%, but without further stimulus, the recovery could stall.

 

[Nobilis Animus]

I don't know about TF specifically but a lot of luxury old school retailers here in the US are struggling or already are bankrupt - NM (Chapter 11), Barneys (bankrupt), Brooks Bros. (bankrupt or close to) so it's not like there isn't any impact but what is TF supposed to do ?Sell their suits for $500? 50% off is always possible to find and if you look long enough you can find 70% off - once you can find a TF suit below 2k that's pretty damn good for me.

Actually, Neiman Marcus has escaped Chapter 11 as of September, so it and Bergdorf Goodman should be around for a long time still.

But yes, I agree, there's only so far this pandemic can affect pricing. So times are tough for most people - but that's not who the brand is appealing to anyway.

 

[Nobilis Animus]

I'm guessing you're in business or a corporate officer, otherwise, how can you afford to pay $2K+ for a suit.

I tried consulting for a while, just to learn about what is going on in the real world, but ultimately, it was not for me. TF is actually beyond my budget, but then again, so are all the other suits I own. However, at the moment TF's brand is exceptionally popular, so great deals are hard to find. I've seen an NWT Isaia sell for $250. I only saw this once, but it actually happened. I bought a NWT Zegna Milano for $425 a month ago, and Canalis can be found every now and then for a few hundred dollars. But TF? I have yet to see them below $1300, and that is an extremely rare occurence.

The thing is that most of the pricing is not just materials, tailoring, wages, etc. The whole concept of the clothes as an art-form is what most of the cost is, in my opinion. The silhouette, details... you pay for a concept, and that's not free or cheap usually.

There are other careers that pay enough that one can buy expensive suits, but that depends upon lifestyle too. I live in Toronto, and the decline of suit-wearing is mostly attributable to not having so many places open for recreation, but as soon as it's nice weather on the patios, there are plenty of CM-type clothes being worn. Not always suits, but certainly blazers, etc.

 

[Professor Χάος]

Yes, of course, we are paying a premium for the brand, which includes an entire concept (if the marketing people are doing their job) about a Tom Ford lifestyle or image. It took me a while to warm up to the TF concept, but once I tried it, I was sold. Now the problem is finding TF suits at prices I can afford.

As for jobs, if you have one that permits you to pay $2K-$3K for a suit, then I hope you can hold on to it.
I had a job like that when I was a consultant, but I spent all my money and didn't manage to save very much.
A friend of mine proposed that I buy bitcoin in 2013, when it was trading for $13. I'm kicking myself for not
following his advice. $25K in 2013 would have earned me something like $30 million had I sold in 2017.
Alas, love which is lost can never be recovered.

 

[OldTown]

Yes, of course, we are paying a premium for the brand, which includes an entire concept (if the marketing people are doing their job) about a Tom Ford lifestyle or image. It took me a while to warm up to the TF concept, but once I tried it, I was sold. Now the problem is finding TF suits at prices I can afford.

As for jobs, if you have one that permits you to pay $2K-$3K for a suit, then I hope you can hold on to it.
I had a job like that when I was a consultant, but I spent all my money and didn't manage to save very much.
A friend of mine proposed that I buy bitcoin in 2013, when it was trading for $13. I'm kicking myself for not
following his advice. $25K in 2013 would have earned me something like $30 million had I sold in 2017.
Alas, love which is lost can never be recovered.

You can make $70k/year and still be able to afford $2k suit. It all depends on your priorities, other hobbies, and commitments. Not having kids should easily allow you to afford a $2k suit. The real question is if that $2k suit is worth that price anymore in the world we live in and how clothing has gone global.

 

[Professor Χάος]

Agreed. Yes..of course I can afford a $2K suit once or twice a year...the problem is that I would like to buy more than just one or two suits as well as shirts, maybe a few new ties, and a pair of high end shoes. I have enough new high end suits and shoes and shirts, including many that are unworn or have been worn once or twice. For me, its about artistic appreciation. Even if most of the world turns its back on high quality suits, I will remain interested. The Italian designers and artisans produce such wonderful clothes, its hard to resist.

 

[Professor Χάος]

Is TF worth it for $2K?....not for me...but if I had more money, probably.
We live in an increasingly interconnected world; for me that is all the more reason to dress well.
30 years ago, American men didn't care much about high end clothes and if they did, Armani or Gucci were it.

But due to the penetration of the better Italian, French and English brands globally, I can find all you gents who know what true sartorial excellence is. In parts of Europe, wearing suits has receded, but its still considered the sign of a well dressed gentleman to wear a nicely tailored suit (although increasingly without a tie). In Asia, suits are still required for high level professionals, including lawyers, bankers, insurance, and even doctors. Its a sign of professional refinement.

One day the suit will make a come back, but even if it doesn't, I'll never stop wearing or appreciating them.

 

[OldTown]

But due to the penetration

For me it wasn't the penetration into America. I was getting to the point in my career where I was traveling out of America to these other countries and seeing it in person and not wanting to look or feel inadequate in meetings or at after work functions. From there it just snowballs...

 

[Professor Χάος]

Yes...it probably went both ways. 20 years ago I went searching for Italian made suits in the top tier clothiers...
Neiman, Saks and similar stories....the best I could find was a midnight Navy double breasted pinstripe Valentino.
It was one of my favorite suits for a while, but i grew from a size 40R to a 42R. Now you can find Isaia, Kiton, Belvest, and Zegna at those same stores. Its still nothing like the depth of the European market, but that's definitely progress.