The Watch Appreciation Thread - Part two (Rolex, Patek Philippe, Audemars Piguet, Jaeger LeCoultre,

[mebiuspower]

Random question: What is the value added for a Blancpain Fifthy Fathoms vs. a Tudor/Omega/etc.?

Just looking at their catalogue and can't see why it costs $10k+ CAD

Umm... look at the movement finishing.

 

[flipstah]

Umm... look at the movement finishing.

Damn

 

[9thsymph]

I constantly shift on where I want to go next with my collection.

For a while, I had some measure of clarity - but with recent, local closures of PP ADs, and rumblings I have heard, I am becoming pretty convinced that I will be an orphaned customer in the near future. And from what I have seen, that is pretty much the kiss of death. Looking at the AD map, I think that my AD might be the smallest remaining retailer, in terms of the market it serves - which does not bode well.

This has caused me to step back and realize that I am not overly impressed with a lot of PP's catalogue. To me, this year really reflected that PP is going in a direction that I do not have any interest in. The 6007G is hot garbage, and I am shocked by some of the admiration it is receiving. At this point, the most interesting stuff to me is the grand complication +, and most of that is available under MSRP online - and, quite frankly, is way out of my price range.

After PP, I look around, and it is a pretty dire market. AP is nearly impossible to get, Lange is too. VC is just unimpressive. Further, the recent price hikes from all brands - which has been noted by Fratello and others - it is difficult to discern any sort of "value." I mean, there was never "value" - but with biannual or triannual price hikes becoming the norm, it is really difficult for me to look at the price and find it sensible. This has been talked about ad nauseum, but the IWC Ingy is a great example of this. Also, I remember not too long ago when a 5712 was low $30,000s, and now it is nearing $50,000. Or the Lange Saxonia was $13,000 is now $23,500. Or the Reverso recently increased in price 44%!

In terms of what I am interested in, I still like a lot of neovintage. But I think I want to shift the bulk of my interest to independents.

The PP 5224 was my favorite "obtainable" watch from PP at W&W this year:

View attachment 1941961

It clocks in right at $60,000.

I struggle to see how that is commanding that kind of price, and what you can get from independents for that price.

That is the same price as the Simon Brette that was just released:

Or the Origine from Sylvain Pinaud:

Or the Marco Lang posted above.

Or, turning to neovintage, all of these could be had for the same price as the PP 5224 and you do not need to grovel at a local AD:

So the likelihood of losing access to PP caused you to realize you don’t really like PP (or their recent direction…)? I mean, I agree that their recent stuff is uninspiring, and to admit that part of your affection for the brand was driven by being part of the access club, is either admirable or convenient (or both - people hating on watches they can’t own, or being overly adoring because of scarcity and/or access relative to scarcity, etc…).

Anyway, beyond your planned foray into independents (cool), it still seems like you want an AP RO, but are understandably loath to enter their boutique process. Why not just pay the premium via grey market?

 

[Lizard23]

Random question: What is the value added for a Blancpain Fifthy Fathoms vs. a Tudor/Omega/etc.?

Just looking at their catalogue and can't see why it costs $10k+ CAD

I own both a Pelagos and a Bathyscaphe. I wear them both often and enjoy both of them immensely.

Within the crazy world of wrist watches, I think both punch above their weight class and are underpriced if anything (relatively speaking, of course). That being said, relative to each other they are priced exactly where they should be.

 

[Pandaros]

So the likelihood of losing access to PP caused you to realize you don’t really like PP (or their recent direction…)? I mean, I agree that their recent stuff is uninspiring, and to admit that part of your affection for the brand was driven by being part of the access club, is either admirable or convenient (or both - people hating on watches they can’t own, or being overly adoring because of scarcity and/or access relative to scarcity, etc…).

Anyway, beyond your planned foray into independents (cool), it still seems like you want an AP RO, but are understandably loath to enter their boutique process. Why not just pay the premium via grey market?

I think that's a fair point in general but perhaps a little unkind to the OP's reasoning. Afterall, they did say:

This has caused me to step back and realize that I am not overly impressed with a lot of PP's catalogue.

I think everyone can say they get caught up in something or a train of thought, and it takes something else to make them go 'Hold on a minute, what am I thinking?" - and that's effectively what the OP has self-admittedly done. Which I find interesting.

Being in with the PP crowd and thinking you may be able to get something highly valued doesn't necessarily mean you're driven by the "access club" mentality (indeed the OP could claim to still be a part of it), it just means you've been railroaded into thinking "I'm can get a PP and I do like the brand - and not a lot of people are lucky enough to be in this position".

I'm also not jumping on you @9thsymph, I think what you say is worthwhile just not in reference to the OP's thought process - and what you've raised could just devolve into a meaningless discussion.

 

[9thsymph]

I think that's a fair point in general but perhaps a little unkind to the OP's reasoning. Afterall, they did say:



I think everyone can say they get caught up in something or a train of thought, and it takes something else to make them go 'Hold on a minute, what am I thinking?" - and that's effectively what the OP has self-admittedly done. Which I find interesting.

Being in with the PP crowd and thinking you may be able to get something highly valued doesn't necessarily mean you're driven by the "access club" mentality (indeed the OP could claim to still be a part of it), it just means you've been railroaded into thinking "I'm can get a PP and I do like the brand - and not a lot of people are lucky enough to be in this position".

I'm also not jumping on you @9thsymph, I think what you say is worthwhile just not in reference to the OP's thought process - and what you've raised could just devolve into a meaningless discussion.

Point taken on devolving, etc…

I’ve followed Newc regularly here, though, so I’m simply reacting to the journey I’ve seen unfold relative to how it can be variously described and the path(s) it may portend…?

Also, I pointed out, as you did, the admirable perspective…

 

[Newcomer]

I’ll respond this evening. I am fine with @9thsymph .

 

[Ebitdaddy]

For a while, I had some measure of clarity - but with recent, local closures of PP ADs, and rumblings I have heard, I am becoming pretty convinced that I will be an orphaned customer in the near future. And from what I have seen, that is pretty much the kiss of death. Looking at the AD map, I think that my AD might be the smallest remaining retailer, in terms of the market it serves - which does not bode well.

This has caused me to step back and realize that I am not overly impressed with a lot of PP's catalogue. To me, this year really reflected that PP is going in a direction that I do not have any interest in. The 6007G is hot garbage, and I am shocked by some of the admiration it is receiving. At this point, the most interesting stuff to me is the grand complication +, and most of that is available under MSRP online - and, quite frankly, is way out of my price range.

After PP, I look around, and it is a pretty dire market. AP is nearly impossible to get, Lange is too. VC is just unimpressive. Further, the recent price hikes from all brands - which has been noted by Fratello and others - it is difficult to discern any sort of "value." I mean, there was never "value" - but with biannual or triannual price hikes becoming the norm, it is really difficult for me to look at the price and find it sensible. This has been talked about ad nauseum, but the IWC Ingy is a great example of this. Also, I remember not too long ago when a 5712 was low $30,000s, and now it is nearing $50,000. Or the Lange Saxonia was $13,000 is now $23,500. Or the Reverso recently increased in price 44%!

In terms of what I am interested in, I still like a lot of neovintage. But I think I want to shift the bulk of my interest to independents.

I am very much so in the same boat as you.

Don't feel your dollar gets you much with Patek, AP, etc.

The independents feel like solid value, you get to support a small business & great artists, plus if you buy right, you probably will not lose money.

Not to mention the product is far better than what you get from the big names, who do not treat customers well.

Like you, I've been exploring a lot of neovintage too, hence the Roth and a few similar pieces as of late.

 

[mak1277]

I constantly shift on where I want to go next with my collection.

For a while, I had some measure of clarity - but with recent, local closures of PP ADs, and rumblings I have heard, I am becoming pretty convinced that I will be an orphaned customer in the near future. And from what I have seen, that is pretty much the kiss of death. Looking at the AD map, I think that my AD might be the smallest remaining retailer, in terms of the market it serves - which does not bode well.

This has caused me to step back and realize that I am not overly impressed with a lot of PP's catalogue. To me, this year really reflected that PP is going in a direction that I do not have any interest in. The 6007G is hot garbage, and I am shocked by some of the admiration it is receiving. At this point, the most interesting stuff to me is the grand complication +, and most of that is available under MSRP online - and, quite frankly, is way out of my price range.

After PP, I look around, and it is a pretty dire market. AP is nearly impossible to get, Lange is too. VC is just unimpressive. Further, the recent price hikes from all brands - which has been noted by Fratello and others - it is difficult to discern any sort of "value." I mean, there was never "value" - but with biannual or triannual price hikes becoming the norm, it is really difficult for me to look at the price and find it sensible. This has been talked about ad nauseum, but the IWC Ingy is a great example of this. Also, I remember not too long ago when a 5712 was low $30,000s, and now it is nearing $50,000. Or the Lange Saxonia was $13,000 is now $23,500. Or the Reverso recently increased in price 44%!

In terms of what I am interested in, I still like a lot of neovintage. But I think I want to shift the bulk of my interest to independents.

The PP 5224 was my favorite "obtainable" watch from PP at W&W this year:

View attachment 1941961

It clocks in right at $60,000.

I struggle to see how that is commanding that kind of price, and what you can get from independents for that price.

That is the same price as the Simon Brette that was just released:

Or the Origine from Sylvain Pinaud:

Or the Marco Lang posted above.

Or, turning to neovintage, all of these could be had for the same price as the PP 5224 and you do not need to grovel at a local AD:

Possible that you’re just bored with watches in general and in need of something different? I know that’s definitely happened to me. I don’t consume any watch related media anymore except for scanning new releases (none of which I’m Inclined to seek out). I genuinely don’t know if I’ll ever feel compelled to buy a new watch again. But thanks in part to @LA Guy , I can now tell you all about pocket knife steels and have bought a new knife almost every month this year.

 

[am55]

The cold hard reality is that you can't get the PP name and brand from an independent. A that is a lot of what the price tag is meant to speak to.

As Newcomer points out, there's more to it than the social aspect.

It costs money to keep up a dealer network, supply chain for maintenance and repairs, marketing and the whole business side for "we'll still be alive in 20 years promise", you name it. Independents are discounted precisely because they can't guarantee this. That is why I suspect independents are more popular amongst the watch world connected (who can find someone to service their Laurent Ferrier or Daniel Roth) than the average customer, who is buying a package rather than just an object. This is also why a brand like Cartier can charge a significant premium - they've been around forever, and will be around some time still, thanks to their large diversified business and brand.

Car analogy is Toyota which in many countries can charge up to a 30% premium over equivalent vehicles (and more second hand) from other brands because the ownership experience is worth that much.

Unrelated but every time I type Daniel Roth I think of the St Sulpice organist.

 

[am55]

Not to mention the product is far better than what you get from the big names, who do not treat customers well.

The independents in business *today*, that you've managed to reach *today*, will treat you well *today*. But many things can happen to an independent. They need to train the next generation, they need to learn how to run a growing business, they might get swamped and no longer be able to spend time with a single customer, they might go out of business after illness or family events or just a general recession hold back on discretionary spend. Or you might discover Hajime Asaoka at the same time as the entire world and instead of jacking up his prices he puts a waitlist based on being introduced and interviewed, which you can't do because you're not in Japan and you don't know any of his existing customers (so you get a Kurono as a consolation prize).

One example is Anthony Delos. Imagine if over the years you had established a great relationship with him, gotten a nice collection going, and suddenly in 2012 he's swallowed whole into Berluti. Who do you go to to get your boots repaired? Where can you go now to build a new relationship and find a good rhythm and get the shoes you want?

This is not to say brands are consistent or reliable, but it's certainly a lot less risky.

 

[am55]

Possible that you’re just bored with watches in general and in need of something different? I know that’s definitely happened to me. I don’t consume any watch related media anymore except for scanning new releases (none of which I’m Inclined to seek out). I genuinely don’t know if I’ll ever feel compelled to buy a new watch again. But thanks in part to @LA Guy , I can now tell you all about pocket knife steels and have bought a new knife almost every month this year.

If you want a slippery slope experience may I recommend sports with relatively cheap entry level gear where you compete against yourself rather than others, like freediving or cycling. Guaranteed years of compulsive gear purchasing ahead of you.

 

[FlithyButler]

Car analogy is Toyota which in many countries can charge up to a 30% premium over equivalent vehicles (and more second hand) from other brands because the ownership experience is worth that much.

Absolutely no one is buying a Toyota to make themselves feel special.

Absolutely no business can promise to still be around in 20 years.

 

[am55]

Absolutely no one is buying a Toyota to make themselves feel special.

Absolutely no business can promise to still be around in 20 years.

You sir need to travel to Australia and ask them about Landcruisers.

 

[FlithyButler]

One example is Anthony Delos. Imagine if over the years you had established a great relationship with him, gotten a nice collection going, and suddenly in 2012 he's swallowed whole into Berluti. Who do you go to to get your boots repaired?

... Literally any good cobbler (or if you are especially neurotic/precious a full-blown Cordwainer who is willing to do repairs on others work).

Precision engineered micro-mechanics is a whole other ball-game.

PS. Also funny to note that Delos was slumming it as a mere cobbler for the few years before setting up his Cordwaining workshop.