Suit construction basic questions

[TheChihuahua]

Trying to understand the technical aspect of this then. Is it fair to say that there is a canvass layer, but it is secured with an adhesive vs. sewn in?

When we see the term “floating canvass”, does that then imply that it is sewn in vs. glued?

yeah I always thought that the fused didn’t have a free standing canvas. I always thought that the canvas itself was fused to the suit’s outer material.

I don’t know what to make of picturea/diagrams like this that often appear when you search for information on canvassed vs fused suits.

 

[Despos]

Maybe a breakdown of the components and what function they perform will help you grasp the differences.

Fusing is thin material with an adhesive that bonds to cloth by heat and pressure. Fusing is applied to the front panel of a jacket from the very top to the bottom of the front piece. Purpose is to stabilize cloth and makes cloth easier to work with. Simplifies manufacturing which translates to requiring less skilled labor and therefore less training time for operators. Since it bonds with the cloth it alters the characteristics and nature of the cloth.
Issues with fusing are separation from the cloth which causes bubbles on the surface and have seen a few times when fusing shrinks at a different rate than the cloth. See this more in shirt collars and cuffs. Fusing does not create shape in a garment resulting in a “flat” construction.

Half canvass starts with a fused base same as a totally fused garment.

Backtracking to what canvass is. The main material you see in a canvass is hymo. Hymo is made up from various materials and combinations of materials.
Middle layer is horse hair. Taken from a horses mane and sometimes the tail. This is firmer than hymo and shaping of the haircloth dictates the overall shaping of the canvass.
Darts are cut into the hymo to create a rounded shape at the chest and a tapering from chest to waist.
Cuts are made in the horsehair to shape the chest and shoulder. Shape in the shoulder is created with a “V” cut close to the neck and makes the shoulder contour in the same way as your shoulder.
Third layer on the interior is cotton domette that covers the haircloth and adds a soft covering as horse hair is very stiff.
Padding stitches, by hand or machine, are used to hold the 3 layers together and reinforce the shape. Padding stitches and careful pressing forms the shapes and this can last for decades when well executed.
The canvass is a middle layer in the lapel. It is only hymo and not the other 2 layers. The weft of the hymo is springy and gives body to the lapel. The padding stitches hold the hymo and cloth together and holding the layers “short” from the cloth on the body then the hymo and the the facing create a lapel that rolls and has a convex arch. Lapels look “full”. Fused lapels cannot create this shape and they look hollow. Lapel sometime looks concave when the center of the lapel sinks.

To me, the canvass is the heart and soul of a jacket. There are many ways to shape and make a canvass and contributes to distinguish a tailors work. It gives a jacket definition and contributes to the “feel” of a jacket. Creates a long lasting shape and structure that builds longevity and durability to a jacket.

Half canvass uses only the upper part of the canvass for the chest and shoulder and stops at a point between the armhole and the first button. It can extend into the lapel or sometimes not.
The cloth is still fused from top to bottom. For this reason I would say half canvass is closer to a fused construction than a full canvass.

Full canvass uses a canvass that extends from the top shoulder to the hem. There is no layer of fusing used to stabilize the cloth. Except “skin fusing” mentioned in this thread. I haven’t seen this so I don’t know how common it is to do this. There is no way to fuse canvass/hymo to cloth. There is no adhesive in hymo.
The canvass is the foundation of the jacket front. Applying the cloth to the canvass requires a skill set. You have to smooth the cloth over the canvas while applying pressure on the cloth to make the canvass looser than the cloth. This creates tension in the cloth over a loose canvass and makes the front look smooth. The tension helps wrinkles to fall out and the jacket to recover from packing or folding the jacket.
Vertical fullness can be added on the cloth from the waist down and creates a “round” of the lower body so the front curves naturally around the body. None of this is possible with a fused construction.
The canvass stays in place by tacking it to the cloth at the armhole and padding the layers together in the lapel. It's held in along the front edges by edge tape and stitching. The canvass is free through the body and separate from the cloth. Known as "floating" for that reason.
This full canvass type of construction is time consuming and takes a lot of underpressing throughout the making. Always respecting the shapes and using the iron to reinforce and “set” the shape. Know tailors who take 5-8 hours just to make a canvass. Takes time to train someone to baste the fronts to the canvass
There are big differences if you compare how a bench tailor or a factory works when making a full canvass jacket.

Ask whatever you think needs clarification or something I didn’t mention.

 

[TheChihuahua]

Thanks. I really appreciate the information.

 

[TheChihuahua]

Maybe a breakdown of the components and what function they perform will help you grasp the differences.

Fusing is thin material with an adhesive that bonds to cloth by heat and pressure. Fusing is applied to the front panel of a jacket from the very top to the bottom of the front piece. Purpose is to stabilize cloth and makes cloth easier to work with. Simplifies manufacturing which translates to requiring less skilled labor and therefore less training time for operators. Since it bonds with the cloth it alters the characteristics and nature of the cloth.
Issues with fusing are separation from the cloth which causes bubbles on the surface and have seen a few times when fusing shrinks at a different rate than the cloth. See this more in shirt collars and cuffs. Fusing does not create shape in a garment resulting in a “flat” construction.

Half canvass starts with a fused base same as a totally fused garment.

Backtracking to what canvass is. The main material you see in a canvass is hymo. Hymo is made up from various materials and combinations of materials.
Middle layer is horse hair. Taken from a horses mane and sometimes the tail. This is firmer than hymo and shaping of the haircloth dictates the overall shaping of the canvass.
Darts are cut into the hymo to create a rounded shape at the chest and a tapering from chest to waist.
Cuts are made in the horsehair to shape the chest and shoulder. Shape in the shoulder is created with a “V” cut close to the neck and makes the shoulder contour in the same way as your shoulder.
Third layer on the interior is cotton domette that covers the haircloth and adds a soft covering as horse hair is very stiff.
Padding stitches, by hand or machine, are used to hold the 3 layers together and reinforce the shape. Padding stitches and careful pressing forms the shapes and this can last for decades when well executed.
The canvass is a middle layer in the lapel. It is only hymo and not the other 2 layers. The weft of the hymo is springy and gives body to the lapel. The padding stitches hold the hymo and cloth together and holding the layers “short” from the cloth on the body then the hymo and the the facing create a lapel that rolls and has a convex arch. Lapels look “full”. Fused lapels cannot create this shape and they look hollow. Lapel sometime looks concave when the center of the lapel sinks.

To me, the canvass is the heart and soul of a jacket. There are many ways to shape and make a canvass and contributes to distinguish a tailors work. It gives a jacket definition and contributes to the “feel” of a jacket. Creates a long lasting shape and structure that builds longevity and durability to a jacket.

Half canvass uses only the upper part of the canvass for the chest and shoulder and stops at a point between the armhole and the first button. It can extend into the lapel or sometimes not.
The cloth is still fused from top to bottom. For this reason I would say half canvass is closer to a fused construction than a full canvass.

Full canvass uses a canvass that extends from the top shoulder to the hem. There is no layer of fusing used to stabilize the cloth. Except “skin fusing” mentioned in this thread. I haven’t seen this so I don’t know how common it is to do this. There is no way to fuse canvass/hymo to cloth. There is no adhesive in hymo.
The canvass is the foundation of the jacket front. Applying the cloth to the canvass requires a skill set. You have to smooth the cloth over the canvas while applying pressure on the cloth to make the canvass looser than the cloth. This creates tension in the cloth over a loose canvass and makes the front look smooth. The tension helps wrinkles to fall out and the jacket to recover from packing or folding the jacket.
Vertical fullness can be added on the cloth from the waist down and creates a “round” of the lower body so the front curves naturally around the body. None of this is possible with a fused construction.
The canvass stays in place by tacking it to the cloth at the armhole and padding the layers together in the lapel. It's held in along the front edges by edge tape and stitching. The canvass is free through the body and separate from the cloth. Known as "floating" for that reason.
This full canvass type of construction is time consuming and takes a lot of underpressing throughout the making. Always respecting the shapes and using the iron to reinforce and “set” the shape. Know tailors who take 5-8 hours just to make a canvass. Takes time to train someone to baste the fronts to the canvass
There are big differences if you compare how a bench tailor or a factory works when making a full canvass jacket.

Ask whatever you think needs clarification or something I didn’t mention.

Could you clarify a bit what to make of these diagrams regarding the topic? Are they just flat out incorrect in what they are trying to convey?

also, what is the point of half canvass and how does it improve versus fused? Does fused have a thicker fusible that is used, and half canvas uses a thinner fusible due to it also having that canvas piece giving it structure?

 

[Despos]

Lower set of pictures show the areas that are fused or have canvass. Upper set of pictures is giving features and benefits.
Fused picture shows fusing in grey from top to bottom.
Half canvass shows the grey as fusing and you see the chest piece from the shoulder to the mid section.
Full canvass has the canvass from top to hem.
Pretty straight forward. Not sure what you aren't clear about.
Half canvass is done to give the shape to the chest and shoulder. It is cut and shaped like a full canvass. It just ends at a mid point and doesn't extend to the hem. All the shaping of a canvass is done in the chest and shoulder.
Purpose of the lower canvass part is to create tension under the cloth and use it as a foundation and give body to the fronts

 

[TheChihuahua]

Lower set of pictures show the areas that are fused or have canvass. Upper set of pictures is giving features and benefits.
Fused picture shows fusing in grey from top to bottom.
Half canvass shows the grey as fusing and you see the chest piece from the shoulder to the mid section.
Full canvass has the canvass from top to hem.
Pretty straight forward. Not sure what you aren't clear about.
Half canvass is done to give the shape to the chest and shoulder. It is cut and shaped like a full canvass. It just ends at a mid point and doesn't extend to the hem. All the shaping of a canvass is done in the chest and shoulder.
Purpose of the lower canvass part is to create tension under the cloth and use it as a foundation and give body to the fronts

I guess this is the disconnect, and my apologies if I am missing you already explained.

1. both the fused and the half canvas have fusible layer connected to the outer fabric on the front?
2. Is the fusible material similar for each, or is it thicker on the fused than the half canvas?
3. both the fused and thehalf Canvas have somepint of canvassing (the half canvass has a bit more)? Or is this incorrect? (I am deriving this moreso from the earlier post and the linked thread your most recent post)

apologies again if this has been explained and I am just missing it?

 

[Despos]

1. both the fused and the half canvas have fusible layer connected to the outer fabric on the front?
NOT CONNECTED. BONDED TO THE CLOTH BY AN ADHESIVE. BOTH ARE DONE THE SAME WAY

2. Is the fusible material similar for each, or is it thicker on the fused than the half canvas?
A DIFFERENT TYPE OR WEIGHT OF FUSING MAY BE USED BUT PROBABLY IN REGARDS TO THE TYPE/WEAVE,WEIGHT OF THE CLOTH. THIS IS UP TO THE MAKER, NOT A RULE

3. both the fused and thehalf Canvas have somepint of canvassing (the half canvass has a bit more)? Or is this incorrect? (I am deriving this moreso from the earlier post and the linked thread your most recent post)
THERE IS NO CANVASS USED IN THE FUSED GARMENT. LOOK AT THE PICTURE; THERE IS NO CANVASS ON THE FUSED GARMENT

 

[TheChihuahua]

1. both the fused and the half canvas have fusible layer connected to the outer fabric on the front?
NOT CONNECTED. BONDED TO THE CLOTH BY AN ADHESIVE. BOTH ARE DONE THE SAME WAY

2. Is the fusible material similar for each, or is it thicker on the fused than the half canvas?
A DIFFERENT TYPE OR WEIGHT OF FUSING MAY BE USED BUT PROBABLY IN REGARDS TO THE TYPE/WEAVE,WEIGHT OF THE CLOTH. THIS IS UP TO THE MAKER, NOT A RULE

3. both the fused and thehalf Canvas have somepint of canvassing (the half canvass has a bit more)? Or is this incorrect? (I am deriving this moreso from the earlier post and the linked thread your most recent post)
THERE IS NO CANVASS USED IN THE FUSED GARMENT. LOOK AT THE PICTURE; THERE IS NO CANVASS ON THE FUSED GARMENT

thank you, that does clear it up. There were other posts saying that fused garments did have a canvas, just not all the way to the lapel.

so one more follow up:
1. The fused and the half canvas will we a fusible layer/skin connected on the inside to the out layer/front of the jacket.
2. the Fusible used might be similar for both fused and half canvas, but that’s up to the maker.
3. The half canvas has that canvas portion, which adds structure tk the jacket that the fused does not have.

If that is all correct, would a fused jacket generally be lighter weight than a half canvas jacket?
Also, regarding the bubbling/puckering that happens when fused are dry cleaned, it would seem that the half canvas is just as susceptible?

 

[Despos]

Yes, bubbling can occur on a fused or half canvass construction.

Doubt you could distinguish a difference in weight between a fused or half canvass. Insignificant difference.

 

[breakaway01]

With modern fusibles I think the risk of bubbling/delamination is not significant.

construction is of course important but the trap is to think only about whether a garment is fully canvassed or not as the prime measure of its ‘quality’. Remember that the canvassing is a means to an end, not the end in itself. Whether the jacket fits you well and complements your build and proportions is far more important. I would venture that the reason to ask Chris Despos to make you a suit is not because he uses a full canvas, but because he uses it to construct a suit that will look great on you.

 

[TheChihuahua]

I really appreciate all this information.

 

[Despos]

With modern fusibles I think the risk of bubbling/delamination is not significant.

construction is of course important but the trap is to think only about whether a garment is fully canvassed or not as the prime measure of its ‘quality’. Remember that the canvassing is a means to an end, not the end in itself. Whether the jacket fits you well and complements your build and proportions is far more important. I would venture that the reason to ask Chris Despos to make you a suit is not because he uses a full canvas, but because he uses it to construct a suit that will look great on you.

Fusing is better but dry cleaners are not. They can cause problems.
Full canvass is not a barometer of quality but it’s critical to the making of a jacket. Can’t think of anything else in a suit that contributes more to the longevity, durability, fit and comfort of a jacket. There are poorly constructed canvass as well so I wouldn’t judge quality by this. Just don’t underestimate the contribution to the overall quality of a jacket.

 

[breakaway01]

Fusing is better but dry cleaners are not. They can cause problems.
Full canvass is not a barometer of quality but it’s critical to the making of a jacket. Can’t think of anything else in a suit that contributes more to the longevity, durability, fit and comfort of a jacket. There are poorly constructed canvass as well so I wouldn’t judge quality by this. Just don’t underestimate the contribution to the overall quality of a jacket.

I don't disagree with you, Chris -- my point simply is to look at the totality of the garment. I have seen many pictures of people wearing poorly fitting fully canvassed jackets.

 

[Despos]

I don't disagree with you, Chris -- my point simply is to look at the totality of the garment. I have seen many pictures of people wearing poorly fitting fully canvassed jackets.

Fit is unrelated to the canvass and I’m only inferring the effect/contribution on construction.

 

[knittieguy]

Is it true that a canvassed jacket will mold to the wearer's body shape over time, and thus will actually look and fit better after wearing it a number of times? And if so, does this recede with disuse (in other words, since my suits have been sitting in my closet for over a year now, are they going to lose some of their body-specific form)?