Split Toe Derby

[amiga505]

Is it really a bad thing to wear flannel trousers with oxfords? I mean, if you are the kind of person who would wear oxfords with something besides a suit in the first place. (Which might mean you are in the majority.)

With derbies, I think smooth calf would be fine with those flannels. And I don't see why you couldn't do brown shoes either, if you wanted to. (Though I do love me some nice black derbies.)

well, charcoal is practically black, and black and brown do not mix, at least not in my book. I think it's considered one of them 'rules', but no matter that, I just find the combination jarring. but hey, I am the guy who one day found himself disliking the combination of black and navy, so you may take my statements with a pinch of salt.

on the subject of oxfords with flannel trousers, or in a casual setting in general - as I said, this is relatively new development for me, and it stems from a pretty good article (need to find it...) from the forum archives about keeping coherence within country or city look. again, or at least for me, it's one of those things you learn and can't shake, but on the other hand I see this as progress of sorts, next step of sophistication. this is a process of learning, and this is where the forum comes in handy. I did wear derbies with suits to begin with, back in 2016-2017, when I was only just starting, and I will probably still wear them with my brown flannel suit, which is rather casual, but other than that, I'll stick with oxfords for the suit. in the same spirit, when I wear my charcoal grey flannel trousers with the aforementioned ill-advised black oxfords, as I do, for the lack of a better option, I can't stop being self-concious about this inconsistency in my look. granted, 95% of people I meet on the street will not have a clue, but it's striving for perfection, you know...

one personal exception to this personal view is a navy blazer with mid-grey flannel trousers, especially when worn with a French cuff shirt. I see this as formal informal wear, and think that a pair of brown oxfords is completely in keeping with the look.

I think I have my mind set on smooth calf now, the more I think about it, the more I like it.

 

[acapaca]

Oh, I totally get where you are coming from (and I think the article you mention could well have come from the great Derek Guy @dieworkwear, or at least it lines right up with his views on dress as 'language'). I wasn't sure, though, that flannel was necessarily on the country end of the spectrum, in the same way that tweed would be.

I also hear you on the no black with brown (though I know it's popular with some, especially as in, say, a black knit tie), but I think you might feel differently about charcoal if you gave it a try! Well, that is, if you ever find any joy from feeling a bit subversive.

 

[Betelgeuse]

and it stems from a pretty good article (need to find it...) from the forum archives about keeping coherence within country or city look

This one?

 

[dieworkwear]

this gives me a good starting point to seek some advice, I hope it will not be too much of an off-topic as I will be talking of split-toe derbies.

I possess a pair of fall-winter trousers in charcoal grey flannel, it's a proper flannely flannel with a distinct fluffy feel and a melange quality. here it is:

View attachment 1480709

having this pair of trousers made was why I bought a pair of black oxfords - a decision I, having since learned about the city-country dynamics, came to regret. I have a few tweed coats to go with these trousers, one loud double-breasted check and such like, definitely in the country territory, so I am now thinking a pair of black split-toe derbies...

the question I have is about the leather... I initially thought that grained leather, pebble-grain or scotch grain would sync well with the texture of the trousers. something like this (textures, not colours):

now however I am thinking that such texture on the leather will be too in keeping with the texture of the trousers, and my thoughts are turning in a direction of contrast. perhaps indeed, high-gloss polished leather will look best, just like @Betelgeuse is wearing? these:

or, polished leather, but with a shadow:

what do you think?

Black split toes only look right to me when they're in a grained leather. Granted, they're a bit of a contradiction anyway since black is a sightly formal color and split toes are a casual shoe. But I've seen outfits where I thought black grained split goes looked great in casual outfits (meaning sport coats). Vox wears them. So does Mark at The Armoury. I don't have photos on hand, but Mark has a bunch of videos on his IG where you can see how black grained split toes work in an outfit

Is it really a bad thing to wear flannel trousers with oxfords? I mean, if you are the kind of person who would wear oxfords with something besides a suit in the first place. (Which might mean you are in the majority.)

With derbies, I think smooth calf would be fine with those flannels. And I don't see why you couldn't do brown shoes either, if you wanted to. (Though I do love me some nice black derbies.)

Oxfords look wrong to me when they're worn outside the context of a suit. I think it's easier to wear slightly more casual shoes than the outfit calls for. But dressier shoes in an outfit look bad to me (e.g. very sleek split toes with jeans, oxfords with sport coats, etc. Rather than rounded split toes with jeans and almost any derby with sport coats)

well, charcoal is practically black, and black and brown do not mix, at least not in my book. I think it's considered one of them 'rules', but no matter that, I just find the combination jarring. but hey, I am the guy who one day found himself disliking the combination of black and navy, so you may take my statements with a pinch of salt.

Yea, I think charcoal trousers call for black shoes. If someone was iffy about doing black split toes, I would just do something like a black tassel loafer with charcoal trousers and a tweed jacket.

 

[amiga505]

This one?

spot on Sir!

 

[andreasky]

Black split toes only look right to me when they're in a grained leather. Granted, they're a bit of a contradiction anyway since black is a sightly formal color and split toes are a casual shoe. But I've seen outfits where I thought black grained split goes looked great in casual outfits (meaning sport coats). Vox wears them. So does Mark at The Armoury. I don't have photos on hand, but Mark has a bunch of videos on his IG where you can see how black grained split toes work in an outfit

I think it depends on the model.
When I saw EG Dover at Tassels shop (Hong Kong) in black calf (last 606) they seemed awesome to me.
On the other hand, from what I can see on the Internet to me StC 633 is nicer in textured leather (like Inca) than calf.
Also from the web StD by Paolo Scafora and Stefano Bemer seem more beautiful in antiqued calf than textured. It is a matter of style/ shape of the specific model.

Oxfords look wrong to me when they're worn outside the context of a suit. I think it's easier to wear slightly more casual shoes than the outfit calls for. But dressier shoes in an outfit look bad to me (e.g. very sleek split toes with jeans, oxfords with sport coats, etc. Rather than rounded split toes with jeans and almost any derby with sport coats)

I have several pairs of jeans by Jacob Cohen. The slim fit ones match very well with whichever pair of shoes I wear, for instance black calf derby by Vass (the so called Theresianer), black calf penny loafers, and chukka boots in snuff suede, snuff waxy kudu chukka by Stefano Bemer.
With those jeans I would wear EG Dover and even Chelsea in black calf if I had them. The same goes for other pants by Jacob Cohen I wear in winter.
If I wear the same black calf shoes with jeans (and generally pants) which are not slim fit (with larger leg), they do not render the same. I need shoes with wider shape, like my black calf StD by Tricker's.

 

[clee1982]

I can see Paolo Scafora's split toe in smooth calf work with jeans, but that's definitely too itlain for my nearly hairless cannot un button all of them chest.

 

[jischwar]

Oxfords look wrong to me when they're worn outside the context of a suit. I think it's easier to wear slightly more casual shoes than the outfit calls for. But dressier shoes in an outfit look bad to me (e.g. very sleek split toes with jeans, oxfords with sport coats, etc. Rather than rounded split toes with jeans and almost any derby with sport coats)

Do you feel the same way about balmoral boots or can they work in more business casual instances?

 

[BColl_Has_Too_Many_Shoes]

It is a matter of style/ shape of the specific model.

I have several pairs of jeans by Jacob Cohen. The slim fit ones match very well with whichever pair of shoes I wear, for instance black calf derby by Vass (the so called Theresianer), black calf penny loafers, and chukka boots in snuff suede, snuff waxy kudu chukka by Stefano Bemer.
With those jeans I would wear EG Dover and even Chelsea in black calf if I had them. The same goes for other pants by Jacob Cohen I wear in winter.
If I wear the same black calf shoes with jeans (and generally pants) which are not slim fit (with larger leg), they do not render the same. I need shoes with wider shape, like my black calf StD by Tricker's.

This speaks to the additional caveat in the generalization that certain textures mix with certain materials.
The general size and appearance of the given individual is critical here. So your (not specifically yourself just a blanket "your" since @amiga505 broached the question) current wardrobe and body must be factored into the equation.

Mark Cho dresses very well. A well curated wardrobe in its selection and implementation, however be mindful of his size. No offense to him, but he is a little guy. He and I may be the same height (I'm 5'11''), but my proportions are different. For context, I'm coming in at 205 pounds, 44" inch chest & mile wide shoulders, but have a 33" waist. I wear the stuff Mark Cho wears & how he wears it, and I'd look like a clown without makeup.

As an example, years ago when I tried on some flat front pants and a skinny tie to be up with current fashions (John Wick inspired of course haha), my wife and sister were laughing for like 5 minutes.

This was also the time I was forcing myself to get into GG. Fit issues aside, I realized that GG was not a good look for me. The general style and appearance doesn't work for my overall look.

I mentioned it a few times on here, but my misses calls it the Gru effect. Gru from Despicable Me. Big and scary on top while having little ballerina feet down below. Talk about contrast.

In any case, I'm not sure what brands @amiga505 is looking at for shoes, but aside from leather (smooth vs textured) consider your last style options as well.

 

[dieworkwear]

Do you feel the same way about balmoral boots or can they work in more business casual instances?

Personally not a fan of balmoral boots in any outfit and think they look a bit "internet-y." I bought a pair about seven years ago from Edward Green. Wore them once and then never again. Probably among my most regrettable purchase. They feel too dressy for sport coats; too odd with suits. I would never wear them with jeans.

If you haven't already read it, I think Vox's article on "coherent combinations," linked above, is a great read.

 

[clee1982]

Funny thing I'm trying to buy a balmorals boot...

 

[dieworkwear]

Funny thing I'm trying to buy a balmorals boot...

I bought mine because Manton advocated for them many years ago at The London Lounge. At the time, he was organizing a group order through Carmina, and needed enough members to come along.

His argument: balmoral boots protect your feet better in the snow and rain than regular oxfords. Under a suit trouser, no one will know the difference between bal boots and regular oxfords, as your trousers cover up the shaft. But then when you sit down, a bit of the shaft peeks out, which I suppose is supposed to make you happy (one of those, "only I know" things that always appeals to guys for some reason).

But I found they're too dressy for sport coats (personally wouldn't wear oxfords with anything outside of a suit). And then when you wear it with a suit ... it feels dandy. Or very internet-y. It's like one of those felt flower things people used to stick onto their sport coats. It just feels like you're painting a mustache on the Mona Lisa. A dark worsted suit is a beautiful thing, and the appeal is all in how easy it is to execute so long as you have a good tailor and trust the basics. Like, this looks terrific:

Why put something unexpected on that? Those outfits would look terrific with black oxfords. It's so simple and elegant. And, more importantly, worn for a specific purpose: to conservative offices where you're supposed to not let clothes be a distraction.

Then there are casual suits and sport coats, which I think look best with casual shoes.

I also like this: casual oxfords worn with a casual suit. Tan color on the shoes goes with the tan color on the suit. But the same shoes wouldn't work with a dark suit, as the bright spot would draw the eye downward.

That said, some guys wear oxfords with sport coats, and still look great. Bruce has a pair of punch caps from Cleverley that he often wears with sport coats. I think it helps that he's has a natural bit of style and that the oxfords are in suede. But I think he's more of the exception than the rule.

Bal boots, on the other hand, are neither here nor there. They're kind of gimmicky with a suit. I think they would look odd in the kind of office environment where you'd be expected to wear a serious suit. I also think they're too dressy for a sport coat. You could wear them with an autumnal causal suit, such as something made from Thornproof, but how many people have those? Or you could wear them with a grey flannel suit dressed down (e.g. with a turtleneck), but again, not many people wear that combo.

Will used to wear bal boots in this way, but he also lives that kind of lifestyle.

 

[jischwar]

Personally not a fan of balmoral boots in any outfit and think they look a bit "internet-y." I bought a pair about seven years ago from Edward Green. Wore them once and then never again. Probably among my most regrettable purchase. They feel too dressy for sport coats; too odd with suits. I would never wear them with jeans.

If you haven't already read it, I think Vox's article on "coherent combinations," linked above, is a great read.

Funny thing I'm trying to buy a balmorals boot...

I appreciate the color. I only own 2 pairs of oxfords, which I wear exclusively with suits. I'm a boot guy and have my first pair of balmoral boots on the way.

I planned on wearing them with suits in colder months and possibly breaking the rules a bit to wear them with a sport coat

 

[clee1982]

My thought process was really simple as well

1. Bad weather, need to wear boots
2. Choose between blucher style boot or balmoral style boot, and since I'm wearing suit, go for balmoral boot

 

[JohnMRobie]

Some “apron toe I don’t know what the hell these would be called” adjacent content for the fellas not on Twitter. @dieworkwear had an incredible tweet today and the replies have me dying. Worth your time.