1. And... we're back. You'll notice that all of your images are back as well, as are our beloved emoticons, including the infamous :foo: We have also worked with our server folks and developers to fix the issues that were slowing down the site.

    There is still work to be done - the images in existing sigs are not yet linked, for example, and we are working on a way to get the images to load faster - which will improve the performance of the site, especially on the pages with a ton of images, and we will continue to work diligently on that and keep you updated.

    Cheers,

    Fok on behalf of the entire Styleforum team
    Dismiss Notice

Saville Row Suit

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by GodAtum, Feb 16, 2011.

  1. Sleats

    Sleats Senior member

    Messages:
    105
    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2009
    Please let me try and answer:

    1. Who be my cutter? - John De Boise or Micheal Brown

    2. Would I meet him? - Yes

    3. Can I watch him cut it? - Yes in either of our 3 premises in London (not canary wharf but we have a workshop in the city in addition to our shop)

    4. Who would measure me? Michael or John

    5. Where is my suit tailored? - we make 30% in the UK and the rest in our workshop overseas. We are honest about this where as most keep it quiet.

    6. Who conducts my fittings? - The cutter who measured you

    7. Where is my pattern kept? - in our workshops



    I am sure Austin Reed do not claim to be bespoke...
    Mossbross do largely claim to be bespoke as they are trying to stir debate and discussion and people mentioning them on forums, newspapers et al. But you will find Brian the guys that runs the show knows it is not bespoke.


    Regarding Johns own customers and offerings I think it only fair for me to talk abt C&D




     
  2. Not Ed Harris

    Not Ed Harris Senior member

    Messages:
    202
    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2010
    Location:
    London, UK
    Not Ed Harris - what dashing tweed did Graham Browne make up for you? Just curious as there isn't much on the net about DT.

    It was in the MacDougall Check 2. When I get back from work tonight I'll see if I've got any pictures.

    Graham Browne charge about £85/m for it but I'd been in touch with Guy at Dashing Tweeds and he invited me round his house to look at his cloths and suits and I sweet-talked him into a discount as it was for my wedding. He's traded his photgraphy services to for tailoring from various places on Savile Row so I got to try on, I think, some Huntsman, A&S and Henry Poole. Some of the patterns may seem a bit much to be worn as a suit, but when you see them in real life it actually works.
     
  3. EFBenson

    EFBenson Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    93
    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2007
    Expect to pay £3000GBP and up for Gieves & Hawkes full Bespoke suits. The reason i recommend Hackett is that for less that price, Hackett will give you the best service ever and this includes the use of one of the best textile "Famous Loro Piana Textile". The Chelsea suit am intending to buy soon is made with this textile. So the durability is rest assured.

    G&H is £3250 + price of cloth for a two piece
     
  4. WhippingBoy

    WhippingBoy Active Member

    Messages:
    41
    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2011
    Fair enough, based on that evidence, you are worth investigating

    It does however raise further questions.

    1. Can you tell us more about Michael's background?
    2. Who do the tailors in the UK and overseas work too. John, Micheal or you?
    3. Are the UK tailors you use just used for finishing and the overseas operation for the making?
    4. What happens when I leave your shop with my bespoke suit? What after care do you recommend and where can I best achieve this
    5. Do you recommend all your bespoke client return after 3 months to see how the suit is wearing? Graham Browne do this


    I do not see why You and/or John would tell me or any other potential customer the difference between both of your repective bespoke products. Especially with such a significant price difference. I am not disputing the prices, they are what they are, however I would like you, or your cutter, as expert tailoring professionals, help the customer make an informed choice as to what he is buying.

    on the point of Austin Reed/Dress2kill/Moss bross

    http://www.qtheclub.co.uk/bespoke
    http://www.dress2kill.com/
    Reads like MTM being sold as bespoke to me!


    http://www.mossbros.co.uk/Downloads/...oke_june10.pdf
    There is nothing largely about this and nowhere does it openly admit they are NOT bespoke and trying to provoke a disucssion. If, as you say Brian Brick, (and his tailoring background is?) knows it is NOT bespoke why is he selling his product as bespoke.. That is called lying to customers, it is disingenuous and unprofessional.

    Would I be far off the mark if i assumed his 'Bespoke, please discuss!' suits are made in the same chinese factory that you own?
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/c...Moss-Bros.html
     
  5. dbc

    dbc Senior member

    Messages:
    351
    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2009
    Fair enough, based on that evidence, you are worth investigating

    It does however raise further questions.

    1. Can you tell us more about Michael's background?
    2. Who do the tailors in the UK and overseas work too. John, Micheal or you?
    3. Are the UK tailors you use just used for finishing and the overseas operation for the making?
    4. What happens when I leave your shop with my bespoke suit? What after care do you recommend and where can I best achieve this
    5. Do you recommend all your bespoke client return after 3 months to see how the suit is wearing? Graham Browne do this


    I do not see why You and/or John would tell me or any other potential customer the difference between both of your repective bespoke products. Especially with such a significant price difference. I am not disputing the prices, they are what they are, however I would like you, or your cutter, as expert tailoring professionals, help the customer make an informed choice as to what he is buying.

    on the point of Austin Reed/Dress2kill/Moss bross

    http://www.qtheclub.co.uk/bespoke
    http://www.dress2kill.com/
    Reads like MTM being sold as bespoke to me!


    http://www.mossbros.co.uk/Downloads/...oke_june10.pdf
    There is nothing largely about this and nowhere does it openly admit they are NOT bespoke and trying to provoke a disucssion. If, as you say Brian Brick, (and his tailoring background is?) knows it is NOT bespoke why is he selling his product as bespoke.. That is called lying to customers, it is disingenuous and unprofessional.

    Would I be far off the mark if i assumed his 'Bespoke, please discuss!' suits are made in the same chinese factory that you own?
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/c...Moss-Bros.html


    Thanks for asking the hard questions. Am going to be watching this thread.
     
  6. Sleats

    Sleats Senior member

    Messages:
    105
    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2009
    1. Can you tell us more about Michael's background?
    He trained at Paul Smith Bespoke and with Joe & Roy from Chittleborough and Morgan

    2. Who do the tailors in the UK and overseas work too. John, Micheal or you?
    All staff are employed by us... Is that what you mean


    3. Are the UK tailors you use just used for finishing and the overseas operation for the making?
    No we have coatmakers here and overseas


    4. What happens when I leave your shop with my bespoke suit? What after care do you recommend and where can I best achieve this

    Aftercare is a long answer dependent on the garment/use etc etcbut in short
    We have an agreement with Jeeves all customers with our items get a discount using their services or we offer sponge and press service ourselves

    5. Do you recommend all your bespoke client return after 3 months to see how the suit is wearing? Graham Browne do this

    Without question


    Regarding charges for ours and Johns suits - the difference comes in several areas.. We buy our cloth far cheaper than most as we make a large amount of suits and also we buy cloth on behalf of the other tailors we make for. John has been in the business for decades and has his set pricing and prefers to work with a limited number of customers and provide a better level of service than if he offered his own direct customers a lower price and had more of them....
     
  7. WhippingBoy

    WhippingBoy Active Member

    Messages:
    41
    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2011
    1. Can you tell us more about Michael's background?
    He trained at Paul Smith Bespoke and with Joe & Roy from Chittleborough and Morgan
    Thanks, this is fairly verifyable

    2. Who do the tailors in the UK and overseas work too. John, Micheal or you?
    All staff are employed by us... Is that what you mean.

    Good point, when I say work too I mean there must be some communication between cutter and tailor. When John/Michael has cut the suit he passes it to a tailor, if there are any issues who does the tailor report too, you or John. I know from experience it is very difficult to manage an operation in China from London. I am concerned that after John has cut my suit it will disappear off into a black hole in China. All of the tailors I mentioned apart from Apsley tailor here in the UK, generally within walking distance of the cutter.


    3. Are the UK tailors you use just used for finishing and the overseas operation for the making?
    No we have coatmakers here and overseas.
    Where would my suit be made?


    4. What happens when I leave your shop with my bespoke suit? What after care do you recommend and where can I best achieve this

    Aftercare is a long answer dependent on the garment/use etc etcbut in short
    We have an agreement with Jeeves all customers with our items get a discount using their services or we offer sponge and press service ourselves
    Excellent, do you sponge and press other tailors suits, how much is it and what is the turn around time?

    5. Do you recommend all your bespoke client return after 3 months to see how the suit is wearing? Graham Browne do this

    Without question. Good!


    Regarding charges for ours and Johns suits - the difference comes in several areas.. We buy our cloth far cheaper than most as we make a large amount of suits and also we buy cloth on behalf of the other tailors we make for. John has been in the business for decades and has his set pricing and prefers to work with a limited number of customers and provide a better level of service than if he offered his own direct customers a lower price and had more of them....


    I notice you have not commented on the MossBros/Dress2Kill Bespoke comments. Here my question still stands. I not being rude, but this is business. I want the best bang for my buck possible. Otherwise I will get sold crap rubbish like I was at King and Allen. You said yourself you do confuse people. I am merely trying to unconfuse them
     
  8. Sanguis Mortuum

    Sanguis Mortuum Senior member

    Messages:
    5,059
    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2006
    Location:
    Cambridge, England
    I notice you have not commented on the MossBros/Dress2Kill Bespoke comments. Here my question still stands. I not being rude, but this is business. I want the best bang for my buck possible. Otherwise I will get sold crap rubbish like I was at King and Allen. You said yourself you do confuse people. I am merely trying to unconfuse them

    Regarding places like Moss Bros selling their MTM as 'bespoke', there was a recent court ruling where the courts refused to protect the narrow application of the word as it is used here on StyleForum; they ruled that the word 'bespoke' can be used by a company called Sartoriani to apply to their product, which is essentially made to measure. Unfortunately this means that now any company can legally claim their suits are 'bespoke' as long as they are custom made. This is certainly confusing, for the customer who isn't informed about the differences, but with the backing of the courts there is nothing that can be done to stop this.

    It is also understandable that Sleats does not want to get into a in-depth conversation about the shortcomings of his competitors, especially on an internet forum.
     
  9. WhippingBoy

    WhippingBoy Active Member

    Messages:
    41
    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2011
    I think I'm familiar with this 2008 ruling. The recently bankrupt Sartoriani?
    Probably because they sold crap MTM suits as bespoke

    Credit to Sleats, he has answered the questions honestly and if I were looking for a new bespoke tailor I would pay them a visit. But I would insist that all manufacture be done in the UK. I would also expect him to be able to compete on that basis with the other tailors I mentioned , in terms of product, production process, people and like for like price.

    As far as commenting on his competitors, Sleats, who has a better understanding of the Moss Bros operation than I, has openly claimed they are selling there MTM product as bespoke in an attempt to provoke a discussion. If this is openly stated and Brian Brick would like to engage in such a debate, fine. However, this is not the case. If as Sleats claims Brian is selling his suits as bespoke knowing that they are not bespoke, legal ruling or not, I think this is misleading, disingenuous and morally suspect at best
     
  10. Sleats

    Sleats Senior member

    Messages:
    105
    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2009
    Whippingboy, I speak on the MossBross front as a somewhat of an insider as I have discussed with Brian several times the Mossbespoke offering indeed know the business quite well. Although I do hasten to add we are not involved in this business. But he is also not breaking the law in calling his suits bespoke (perhaps unfortunately indeed) but a ruling is a ruling and they and many other businesses do pass off m2m as bespoke. I think to brand the approach as "misleading, disingenuous and morally suspect at best" is slightly over egged. Although I will also add that m2m should be called m2m and not bespoke - but I don't make the laws...more is the pity!

    I understand that you want the most "bang for your buck" but I think you are best to speak to companies in person to get a personal approach, as that is what tailoring offers. Unfortunately writing slightly antagonistic pieces on forums isn't the most helpful in getting people on side and answering questions. I am sorry to hear you had a bad experience with K&A but it is worth remembering that one mans meat is another man poison so to brand them as Kack and Allen even as a competitor I find a bit of a shame. Recalling your disappointment is not an issue but I think demeaning their business in such a way does not do anyone any benefit.

    Re manufacture: I can assure you unfortunately a Made in England tag does not mean it is made to a better standard at all. And if we were not able to "Compete with the other tailors I mentioned , in terms of product, production process, people and like for like price" We wouldn't have a business. I will also stress again that we make/made for companies mentioned on this post and in many others all of which we pretty much produce in our workshop overseas, where they tell you they are made, countrywise is up to their them (but all of which are sold as unquestionably bespoke) . From a british manufacturing family if I could produce it all here I would but where many tailors produce a couple of suits a week perhaps, we produce dozens and unfortunately there is not a work pool here to do that. We have 35 coatmakers in our bespoke team overseas all of whom make to the same high standard finding another 35 here would be nigh on impossible.


    Re talking about the work of other tailors....It is not something I think is helpful, it is a small industry and you will find we all know each other and are a pretty civil bunch in the main.
    Nor would my comments be seen as unbiased despite my best endeavors being in effect a competitor so in short I would, if you are in the future looking for a new tailor as you seem to know the basics go into the shops in person and begin to build a relationship and once you have found a tailor that works for you stick to it and tell all your mates that is how we all survive.



    I think I'm familiar with this 2008 ruling. The recently bankrupt Sartoriani?
    Probably because they sold crap MTM suits as bespoke

    Credit to Sleats, he has answered the questions honestly and if I were looking for a new bespoke tailor I would pay them a visit. But I would insist that all manufacture be done in the UK. I would also expect him to be able to compete on that basis with the other tailors I mentioned , in terms of product, production process, people and like for like price.

    As far as commenting on his competitors, Sleats, who has a better understanding of the Moss Bros operation than I, has openly claimed they are selling there MTM product as bespoke in an attempt to provoke a discussion. If this is openly stated and Brian Brick would like to engage in such a debate, fine. However, this is not the case. If as Sleats claims Brian is selling his suits as bespoke knowing that they are not bespoke, legal ruling or not, I think this is misleading, disingenuous and morally suspect at best
     
    2 people like this.
  11. TheWraith

    TheWraith Senior member

    Messages:
    4,882
    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2009
    Location:
    Australia
    Well said, James. I hope WhippingBoy calms down a little now.

    James, is your 'fully handmade bespoke' option made in England, or that too partially overseas?
     
  12. Sleats

    Sleats Senior member

    Messages:
    105
    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2009
    Well said, James. I hope WhippingBoy calms down a little now.

    James, is your 'fully handmade bespoke' option made in England, or that too partially overseas?


    Hi,

    Both is the answer just depends on our work load, turn around times, Customer etc etc.
     
  13. TheWraith

    TheWraith Senior member

    Messages:
    4,882
    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2009
    Location:
    Australia
    Sounds good. And, if the quality is high, either way is fine with me [​IMG]
     
  14. GodAtum

    GodAtum Senior member

    Messages:
    143
    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2009
    Location:
    London, UK
    So to sum up: Graham Browne do fully bespoke suits using a floating canvas and hand made in their shop for under £1000. Cad & Dandy do fully bespoke suits hand made both in their shop and overseas for under £1000. Apsley bespoke suits start from £500? Sims and MacDonald do fully bespoke suits hand made in their shop for under £1000. Plus they have interest free account scheme [​IMG] i do like the option of super 150's with a pinstripe made of platinum if I win the lottery [​IMG]
     
  15. Ian Cotterill

    Ian Cotterill New Member

    Messages:
    1
    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2011
    Whipping boy,

    I'd like to correct you on a couple of points.

    Fielding & Nicholson offers both a fully bespoke service and made to measure.

    The tailoring for our full bespoke offering is cut and finished by hand by our own in house tailor Raymond Chung, who works out of our Clerkenwell base. Raymond has also worked in Savile Row and has great pedigree in the industry. At only £1200 plus VAT it is excellent value for the quality of workmanship and man hours that are put into this garment.

    Our made to measure offering is there as literally an entry level to get those interested who would not or could not afford full bespoke garments. This is made both in Yorkshire and overseas.

    Please don't bracket us in the same category as those mentioned as we are a high quality English company working with English cloth merchants and cutting in England.
     
  16. WhippingBoy

    WhippingBoy Active Member

    Messages:
    41
    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2011
    


    Yes Mr Fielding, lets clarify.

    When I last spoke to you (around 12 months ago), you informed me and I worked out the following

    1. You are not a tailor. You used to work for Tom James as a 'professional clothier', which is a sales driven operation.
    In fact you explicitly state in your job advertisments for 'professional clothiers' that they need no tailoring experience
    http://www.simplysalesjobs.co.uk/jobs/retail/london/field_sales_executive-354204.html

    2. Your made to measure (or as you described to me, semi bespoke) starts at £1200+vat (£1440). I do not meet my cutter. I would have consultations and fittings with a 'professional clothier' who has no tailoring backgound. Your cutting for these suits is done in Leeds, if I remember. Could you please clarify if this semi-bespoke is fully canvassed or half. And if work is done overseas (cuting and tailoring?), are you going through Mr Sleater?

    3. Your full bespoke, kicks off at £2400+vat (£2880). Raymond (he doesn't work on your mtm?), I belive trained in Hong Kong. You informed me though that he has done some work at/for Richard Anderson. Steven Hitchcock charges £2250+vat. Tom Mahon charges £2260+vat. I'd rather have them, with their background build my suit, and I will save £200

    4.You do not (or last time I spoke to you, you did not) stock Holland and Sherry cloth. All other professional tailors do! Is this due to a falling out with Tom James (who are part of the same IAG that own H&S)

    5. You informed me you expect your customers to pay the full price UP FRONT. Every other tailor I have spoken to is happy to do at least 50% on order 50% on delivery. When challenged on this you told me 'our customers like it that way'. Well, do you even offer then the option? For the record , I am a customer, I don't like it that way!

    5. if I go to Graham Browne, Sims, Mr Antoniou or even Cad, I can meet and consult with professional cutters and tailors that are, in my opinion, better value than you. No offence but why should I give you £1500 for a suit and have Alexander Riley (a man who used to run soccer camps) sort me out, when I can give Mr Sleater less £1k and I can have Jon DeBoise cut and fit my suit and I can have it made in the UK. Unless you can differentiate yourself from the competion its a bit of a no-brainer really

    6. You appear to be doing a lot of these groupon/kgb deals recently, £1500 suit down to £600!!! Can you please tell us the business model for this please? It doesn't make sense offering a £1.5K suit for £600!!!! If this is not the case, lets all visit you and get a fully canvased suit for £600!

    And by they way, have you kissed and made up with Simon Cundey yet after you used Henry Poole photos on your website without their permission. Would you care to explain to the forum why you used these photos to descibe your work in the first place. This could be miscontrude by customers as misrepresentation, or perhaps worse, copyright theft!
     
  17. tennisguru

    tennisguru Senior member

    Messages:
    101
    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2011
    

    Tom from Barrington Ayre is my regular shirt tailor and is doing the bespoke Great Coat that I have threaded about so I will second this recommendation!
     
  18. tennisguru

    tennisguru Senior member

    Messages:
    101
    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2011
    At this rate whipping boy there won't be any tailors left in the UK willing to make you a suit!
     
  19. F. Corbera

    F. Corbera Senior member

    Messages:
    4,908
    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2010
    WhippingBoy, I admire your numbered-bullet-to-post-count-ratio.
     
  20. emptym

    emptym Senior member Moderator

    Messages:
    7,321
    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2007
    Thank you for your patient and candid posts Sleats. Your blog is wonderful too. Very informative and original.
     

Share This Page

Styleforum is proudly sponsored by