Oxxford MTM suit questions

[Manton]

If it isn't true, it should be. That silhouette was awful.

 

[lisapop]

When I asked to see some Lessers, neither the salesman nor Rocco (the oddlot visiting tailor/designer) had heard of H. Lesser cloth. I saw no Moxon, Harrison, J&J Minnis, Scabal, nothing. No thanks. By contrast, even Brooks Brothers has a MUCH better selection of cloths for its MTM suit program.

Bry, keep in mind that you, and others in this forum, are far more knowledgeable about the intricacies of cloth and other rather arcane aspects of clothing than the average salesperson. Yes, they should be equally knowledgeable, but oftentimes they are not, but at least you are and won't fall prey to their ignorance. When I visited the Borelli boutique in NY a while ago, the manager told me Borelli suits were the finest made suits in the world---That was until he subsequently took a new job managing the Kiton store. Which brand do you think he now proclaims as the finest in the world? It ain't Borelli. When I asked the Kiton custom clothing rep at Bergdorf's about my concerns of the fragility of the Super 180 cloth he wanted to sell me, and the wrinkling that would occur, he told me that Kiton makes their suits in a "special way" that precludes such wrinkling. Who knows, maybe that guy is now selling for Borelli.
Grayson

 

[lisapop]

For those vulnerable to heart palpitations, you might want to sit down before checking out the prices of Oxxford Custom @ Louis Boston...

Oxxford Bespoke-Est 2000

Silhouette
Slim, long hourglass.

Cut
Close to the body, with high armholes and a sharply nipped-in waist.

Signature Details
High waist-button, flared sides, angled vents, longer jacket.

Price
$3,500-$9,000

For An Appointment
800-225-5135 or 617-262-6100

The Oxxford Bespoke-Est 2000 suit is a quite conscious attempt by a venerable American clothier"”the company was founded in 1916"”to show that it's not just "All America, Wall Street, George Bush." Those are the words that Mike Cohen, Oxxford Clothes' senior vice president of sales, comes up with off the top of his head when I ask him how the company has usually been thought of. And he's right: Oxxford does what might be called Sartorial American CEO better than anyone.

Bespoke 2000 is a collaboration with Murray Pearlstein, head of Louis Boston, the only place the suit is available. Cohen describes the suit as "a modern approach to Savile Row tailoring." By that he means that the jacket reflects the English tradition by being longer (by a quarter inch) and more fitted than the usual Oxxford cut, but modern in that it is lighter and softer in its construction than one you would find on Savile Row. That probably reflects the influence of Pearlstein, who is a great admirer of the light tailoring characteristic of the Neapolitan school of tailoring.

The Bespoke 2000's hourglass silhouette is one of the most distinctive of the suits profiled here. The shoulders are wide, very soft, and natural; the armholes are cut higher than usual for Oxxford and are sharply defined; and the gorge is placed slightly higher for a longer, slimmer look. But the most distinctive styling element is the pronounced suppression that begins well north of the waist"”almost at the top of the rib cage, in fact. The slight flair at the bottom of the jacket and the sharply angled vent finish off the line"”and echo the 18th-century riding-coat origins of the Savile Row suit.

In other respects the suit is pure Oxxford, however. Every seam is hand-turned and hand-cross-stitched for strength. The jacket has bellows pockets , so called because they open inward to keep the contents from breaking the external line of the jacket. (Oxxford actually has a U.S. patent on the design.) The trousers have a patented one-piece back, which provides a better shape to the small of the back. The lapel and undercollar are hand-padded"”Oxxford is the only company that still makes them this way"”and the lapel has the widest boutonniere buttonhole of any suit made today.

With the Bespoke 2000 suit Oxxford takes the idea of custom to its logical extreme in that it uses only fabrics made in small-run bolts. In most cases Oxxford has only enough material in a given pattern to make one suit or sports jacket. So even in navy- blue, a Bespoke 2000 suit is one-of-a-kind.
Grayson

 

[Will]

Why on earth would anyone brag about having "the widest boutonniere buttonhole of any suit made today" as if it's a technical accomplishment?

Oxxford needs a new marketing copywriter who wears bespoke suits.

Will

 

[Sevcom]

It's from a Departures roundup of custom suits, though like many of the mag's articles, the article might as well have come from Oxxford's marketing dept.

 

[lisapop]

Believe it or not, people have actually guessed, correctly so, that I'm wearing an Oxxford suit specifically because they recognized the signature Oxxford wide boutonniere.  Scary.
Grayson

 

[Mark Seitelman]

I'm a regular and loyal Oxxford customer.  I know the product pretty darned well.  Also, I have bought bespoke in London and New York as well as American MTM.

From my experience, Oxxford is the best suit and value in the luxury class of bespoke and MTM.  Period.

For me, it's as good as bespoke based on my experience.  They have my shoulder, chest, skirt, waist, and armhole proportions down perfectly.  I have found the models that suit me, and changes have been made to my pattern.


I.  The Basted Try-On

With MTM the basted try-on is a waste of time.  I've been told this by some industry insiders including a bespoke tailor who also sells MTM and one of the top MTM salesmen at a big MTM department.  In many MTM operations, the basted try-on is solely for schmaltz (i.e., romancing the customer).  Some so-called "custom" clothiers, who shall remain nameless, pawn-off their MTM suits as "bespoke" and go through a basted try-on which is a charade.  I have gone through this game in my past experience with other establishments in NYC.

I have never had a basted try-on with Oxxford.  I never saw the need for one.  


II.  MTM vs. Bespoke

First, Oxxford is MTM at its store and at the various stores across the country.  They dont' pretend to be anything else.

I cannot comment on the so-called bespoke program at Louis Boston.

This and the other fora have had a raging debate as to what is better,  bespoke or MTM.

I'll concede that nothing is equal to a bench made bespoke suit made in close consultation and collaboration with a top cutter/tailor who has full control over the cutting and sewing process.  If you love clothes and if the process excites you, then it can be a heady experience.

However, I'll give you bespoke addicts a little bit of a shock.  I've tried bespoke in London and NYC (six suits, four sportscoats, and five trousers in the last three years), and I have found that overall, Oxxford is equal to bespoke.  On some things my London tailor excelled, and on some things Oxxford was better.  Same with the NYC bespoke guy.  On an overall rating Oxxford was equal.  

One area in which Oxxford excelled is consistency.  Each garment was consistently excellent and uniform in craftsmanship.  I cannot say the same about my bespokes.  

Based on my experience, if you are pretty average, then you'll fit into an Oxxford MTM.  No, Oxxford might not be suitable for Gov. Schwartneger.  However, for the average guy it is fine.

Now onto the subject of value.


III.  Value

Unless cost is no concern, then you can skip this discussion. However, if cost is a factor, Oxxford is a better value than the bespoke that I have encountered.

First, I should define my bespoke experience as being in the upper middle market.  I haven't used off the Row and Hong Kong tailors.  My London tailor (on the Row) charges 2,000 pounds as his base price.  That's almost $4,000.  The top guys in NYC charge from $3,500.  The typical price is $4,000.  Some are over the $4,000 mark.

Oxxford's base price is $2,400.  If you get a better cloth from the MTM program, the price is about $3,000.  Of course, you can go higher.  An equivalent cloth from a bespoke guy would push-up the bespoke price from $500 to $1,000 higher, therefore, the bespoke suit would be almost $5,000 with a "special" cloth.

If you buy an end bolt at the Oxxford Store, you can get the equivalent of $3,500 suit for $2,400.


IV.  Cloths

I have found the selection to be excellent.  I have ordered both with the MTM books and the merchant books, such as Dugdale and John Hardy.  The Holland & Sherry range is excellent.  My usual problem is too many choices and too few dollars (and room in the closet).

True, they don't have Lesser's.  I guess they could get it on a special request, but I have found the Smiths Cloths, Dugdale, and the other Isles offerings to be excellent.  The Lesser's would be duplicative.


V.  Conclusion

Based on my experience, Oxxford is as good as it gets.  

I can concede that some might have tried Oxxford and found it lacking for whatever reason.  If those customers have found a better MTM or bespoke maker, that's great.  I do not begrudge anyone from voicing an opinion.  I also do not begrudge the other MTM shops and bespoke makers from earning a living.  I also encourage people to step up to the plate and try bespoke if they have the "itch" to experience it.

However, based on my broad experience with different bespoke makers, MTM programs, and clothiers, Oxxford works for me, and I am very happy with it.  I have no reason to experiement further.

If I am a bit of missionary for Oxxford, so be it.

 

[lisapop]

Individual mileage may vary.  I have thrown away more English bespoke suits in my lifetime than most people will ever own, and I also own Oxxford MTM suits.  For me, my Oxxford suits cannot hold a candle to my custom-made suits.  MTM is what it is and most often will not replicate the fit & form of a well-tailored custom suit. Funny thing, those friends, family members, and colleagues who boast about how brilliantly their MTM suits fit, and even how their Savile Row bespoke suits fit, don't see, or don't want to see, just how ill-fitting their suits really are.  Just don't have the heart to rain on their parade.  I can stand on the most fashionable streets of Manhattan and just shake my head in utter amazement at how many men walk by wearing exhorbitantly expensive, embarrasingly badly-fitting suits.  Pity.  But, blessed are those for whom MTM suits fit like the proverbial glove.  
Grayson

 

[Mark Seitelman]

To Bry2000:

To call salesman Tashae a "criminal" is most uncalled for.

He is an honest and gentle man who has customers who have been with him for 25 years. He is held in great respect and admiration by his former sales staff at Bergdorf's who regularly drop by the store.

If you don't like a store, its product, or its sales staff, just pass it by. There is no need to defame a humble salesman.

 

[slaavwmr]

I'm a regular and loyal Oxxford customer.  I know the product pretty darned well.  Also, I have bought bespoke in London and New York as well as American MTM.

From my experience, Oxxford is the best suit and value in the luxury class of bespoke and MTM.  Period.

For me, it's as good as bespoke based on my experience.  They have my shoulder, chest, skirt, waist, and armhole proportions down perfectly.  I have found the models that suit me, and changes have been made to my pattern.


I.  The Basted Try-On

With MTM the basted try-on is a waste of time.  I've been told this by some industry insiders including a bespoke tailor who also sells MTM and one of the top MTM salesmen at a big MTM department.  In many MTM operations, the basted try-on is solely for schmaltz (i.e., romancing the customer).  Some so-called "custom" clothiers, who shall remain nameless, pawn-off their MTM suits as "bespoke" and go through a basted try-on which is a charade.  I have gone through this game in my past experience with other establishments in NYC.

I have never had a basted try-on with Oxxford.  I never saw the need for one.  


II.  MTM vs. Bespoke

First, Oxxford is MTM at its store and at the various stores across the country.  They dont' pretend to be anything else.

I cannot comment on the so-called bespoke program at Louis Boston.

This and the other fora have had a raging debate as to what is better,  bespoke or MTM.

I'll concede that nothing is equal to a bench made bespoke suit made in close consultation and collaboration with a top cutter/tailor who has full control over the cutting and sewing process.  If you love clothes and if the process excites you, then it can be a heady experience.

However, I'll give you bespoke addicts a little bit of a shock.  I've tried bespoke in London and NYC (six suits, four sportscoats, and five trousers in the last three years), and I have found that overall, Oxxford is equal to bespoke.  On some things my London tailor excelled, and on some things Oxxford was better.  Same with the NYC bespoke guy.  On an overall rating Oxxford was equal.  

One area in which Oxxford excelled is consistency.  Each garment was consistently excellent and uniform in craftsmanship.  I cannot say the same about my bespokes.  

Based on my experience, if you are pretty average, then you'll fit into an Oxxford MTM.  No, Oxxford might not be suitable for Gov. Schwartneger.  However, for the average guy it is fine.

Now onto the subject of value.


III.  Value

Unless cost is no concern, then you can skip this discussion.  However, if cost is a factor, Oxxford is a better value than the bespoke that I have encountered.

First, I should define my bespoke experience as being in the upper middle market.  I haven't used off the Row and Hong Kong tailors.  My London tailor (on the Row) charges 2,000 pounds as his base price.  That's almost $4,000.  The top guys in NYC charge from $3,500.  The typical price is $4,000.  Some are over the $4,000 mark.

Oxxford's base price is $2,400.  If you get a better cloth from the MTM program, the price is about $3,000.  Of course, you can go higher.  An equivalent cloth from a bespoke guy would push-up the bespoke price from $500 to $1,000 higher, therefore, the bespoke suit would be almost $5,000 with a "special" cloth.

If you buy an end bolt at the Oxxford Store, you can get the equivalent of $3,500 suit for $2,400.


IV.  Cloths

I have found the selection to be excellent.  I have ordered both with the MTM books and the merchant books, such as Dugdale and John Hardy.  The Holland & Sherry range is excellent.  My usual problem is too many choices and too few dollars (and room in the closet).

True, they don't have Lesser's.  I guess they could get it on a special request, but I have found the Smiths Cloths, Dugdale, and the other Isles offerings to be excellent.  The Lesser's would be duplicative.


V.  Conclusion

Based on my experience, Oxxford is as good as it gets.  

I can concede that some might have tried Oxxford and found it lacking for whatever reason.  If those customers have found a better MTM or bespoke maker, that's great.  I do not begrudge anyone from voicing an opinion.  I also do not begrudge the other MTM shops and bespoke makers from earning a living.  I also encourage people to step up to the plate and try bespoke if they have the "itch" to experience it.

However, based on my broad experience with different bespoke makers, MTM programs, and clothiers, Oxxford works for me, and I am very happy with it.  I have no reason to experiement further.

If I am a bit of missionary for Oxxford, so be it.

Son of Brummel, since you appear to be the expert, let me ask you a question.

What takes 8 weeks to make the suit?

Also, does Oxxford let you make any changes to the suit they sell OTR? Or do they just fit you for the suit they sell OTR?

 

[johnnynorman3]

Grayson, what in your opinion are the places in which RTW (or even MTM) lack in perfect fitting? For me, I'd say that pants are the most difficult thing to have properly fitted in RTW. In addition, I think that a perfect sleeve cuff is something that you can only get in bespoke (and potentially MTM). For me, going bespoke will be a little bit about fit, a lot about styling, and a lot more about having creative control in collaboration with an artisan.

Don't you think that most of the ill-fitting suits on men who could otherwise afford top-notch tailored pieces are due to (1) getting the improper rack size in the first place, and (2) not getting the necessary but completely doable alterations?

I'd be curious to hear your thoughts.

 

[Luc-Emmanuel]

I don't get it. what is really MTM ???
The only thing which bugs me in RTW, even the smallest sizes, is the coat's length. Suits in France don't come in S, R or L sizes : so you are stuck with a Regular, which I feel is sometime too long for me.
Will a MTM program let you decide your jacket's length (and I don't mean altering it, because it ruins the silhouette) or not ?
Otherwise, I don't really see the premium in MTM versus RTW with adequate alterations...

luc

 

[lisapop]

MTM is basically retrofitting a garment to the customer where the measurements and specs of that garment have been predetermined.  Problem is most customers' measurements don't match up precisely with those specs arbitrarily established by the manufacturer.  How could they, given no two men are built exactly alike? The only way, for 99.9% of men, to achieve a precisely-fitted garment that takes into account every imperfection and every individual anatomical trait, is by starting with a clean slate in the form of an individual pattern as the foundation.  With the prices of MTM programs approaching those of excellent fully custom tailors, the debate between custom and MTM becomes moot.
Grayson

 

[Mark Seitelman]

Dear Grayson:

The time span from MTM order to final delivery averages about 6-7 weeks. Generally, 8 weeks is a safe guideline. Generally, the factory will deliver the suit within 4-5 weeks. Of course, union holidays, such as Christmas week, can affect the schedule.

On MTM they will cut the buttonholes in the store if requested. They will sew the double sided buttonholes in the shop. Generally, the in-shop alterations take 1-3 weeks depending upon the work.

The store will perform significant alterations on RTW. They have cut-down shoulders on RTW for me. They will do all sorts of alterations on the pants. I believe that they will re-cut pants if possible and if necessary. Of course, there is an extra charge.

I have been a MTM customer. However, I had a good weight change, and I was able to purchase RTW this last summer. I now purchase both RTW and MTM. My last sportscoat was RTW (Crittiden model), and the only alterations were letting out the waist a bit and cutting and sewing the sleeve buttonholes. I liked the model so much that I ordered one in MTM.

Again, if you're a confirmed bespoke enthusiast you might be disappointed because it's MTM. You won't be working with a cutter who can take you into the workshop and show you how he is adjusting the pattern. However, I am not alone in my viewpoint that its MTM is as good as bespoke. I know others who have the same opinion.

If you're interested, call the store, and feel free to mention my name. The staff is pretty flexible and can deliver on most if not all requirements.

Mark Seitelman

 

[classicgrey]

This is a great video from Oxxford: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=zlX9pcBOqT0