On Tie Knots and Shirt Collars

[An Acute Style]

Butch, ties are cool. Tell me about the shirt.

 

[BaronVonGiggles]



I'm usually not a fan of the double dimple, but it is sometimes hard to avoid and happens naturally. This is a Zegna navy cashmere 6 fold unlined, rollled edges from Yellow Hook Neckties. The knot is a four in hand. The thickness causes extra dimples to naturally appear. I think it looks fine in casual situations.

So, the topic of nice knots comes up enough that I thought I would write a short blurb and invite comments and pictures. Everyone wants a pleasing knot so how can one achieve that? Well, it’s not magic, but as with most things we discuss here, a little knowledge might go a long way. Edit: Bonus...lots of pictures of nice ties. First, please consider your shirt collar first (a topic for a different entry). A ****** collar will not be aided by a beautiful knot. The collar provides the space for the knot to fill in an aesthetically pleasing way, so if you have a crap collar, no knot will save you. Second, various features go into a pleasing knot 1. Fabric thickness and type. Heavy tweed fabrics will tie big knots and wool, IMO, tends to get eaten by a knot so I suspect, all things being equal, equal weight wool versus silk leads to unequal knots (this is partly why it’s ok for a wool tie to be a bit longer). 2. The width of the tie at the knotting point. Presumably, as the tie gets wider at the blade, in generally, the knot will be larger. In bespoke, there are ways to control for this. For my first bespoke tie, I was concerned about a wool tie being too bulky, so Cappelli had it cut a bit narrower at the knotting point than my other ties (an advantage of bespoke). 3. Interlining: Obviously, whether there is an interlining and what type, quality and quantity will matter. I think some interlining is always desired, to give the tie some bones and to help hold the knot in place. 4. The type of knot: Four in hand, a pleasing simple knot. Double four in hand if you find yourself with a RTW tie that ties small knots. 5. The skill of the person knotting: it is possible to tie crappy knots with the most beautiful of ties. Practice, practice, practice. I'm sure there are other factors that escape me at the moment. Most quality RTW ties should tie decent knots. I’ve had good luck with 8cm Drake’s, with the two Vandas that I have owned, and of course, with bespoke ties from Cappelli. The Hober thread is full of pictures of lovely knots as well. So, put points 1 and 2 together, and there’s an interesting variation that we might discuss further, the interaction between collar and knot. And of course, what is too large of a knot for someone is perfect, even too small, for another. Ok, you can now post pictures of your favorite knots by members here, with comments. Let me also ask David Hober to join in if he wishes, always a source of wisdom and knowledge. @Sam Hober Some of my own knots with comments 1. Tie Your Tie, heavy tweed, knots large. 9cm. I would have preferred this tie to be cut narrower or perhaps with less of an interlining to accommodate the thickness and weight of the fabric. It's substantial but charming for that reason, given that it's so tweedy. [COLOR=A74345] [/COLOR] 2. Very chalky madder from Cappelli, which because it's actually a little hard to tie, knots larger than other silk (8.5cm). The spread collar here is probably a positive, given the knot. I might ask Patrizio to cut such madders a bit narrower while keeping blade at 8.5cm I find this true of shantung as well. 3. The Cappelli mentioned earlier, cut thinner at the knotting point, so smaller than your average tie. Probably wasn't necessary for this material, a incredibly soft cashmere. A nice taper to the knot. 8.5 cm 4. Turnbull and Asser tie, pleasing silk knot. 9cm I believe 5. Soft wool challis that ties a lovely tapered knot (Cappelli): 8.5cm 6. Drake's shantung 8cm. Knot is thick, with less taper (cf. above challis) 7. Drake's wool 8cm (I find my Drake's wool to not taper at the knot as sharply as my Cappelli wool ties, so perhaps interlining or how the ties are cut...wool here is soft and fuzzy).

hi! I'm very happy to see this forum. I have always tied my ties with a four-in-hand or a double four-in-hand Prince Albert. What knot does Larry Kudlow the economist use? I always liked them. Thanks!

 

[sugarbutch]

Thanks. It's from Luxire. Dark red university stripes fabric. They say it's 100% cotton, but I think it has some poly in it because it basically doesn't need to be ironed. I am not the only one who thinks this.

 

[am55]

Dark red university stripes fabric

Wait, what? I went back to the pictures to check and I see grey stripes, maybe with a pinkish vibe to them. Goes to show lighting is everything...

 

[sugarbutch]

On my screen, they're definitely red in the center of the picture. YMMV.

 

[am55]

One collar/tie combo I like is the old school British small knot and T&A-style collar, worn here by Nasser (who Miles Copeland recalls as being quite fond of Savile Row):





I think it works if the knot length is half the collar length or more. And with the average knot size these days going in the same direction as watches, it's harder to pull off particularly if you are a larger fellow already. I haven't found the self restraint to wear such a knot in at least a couple of years.

 

[ballmouse]

One collar/tie combo I like is the old school British small knot and T&A-style collar, worn here by Nasser (who Miles Copeland recalls as being quite fond of Savile Row):





I think it works if the knot length is half the collar length or more. And with the average knot size these days going in the same direction as watches, it's harder to pull off particularly if you are a larger fellow already. I haven't found the self restraint to wear such a knot in at least a couple of years.

I worked with an Englishman a few months ago who wore collars and ties in this style. Very English in its restraint and very sharp. The man was probably close to 2 stone overweight too, so I'm not sure if that made any difference.

 

[TweedyProf]

@sugarbutch nice photos of the knit ties, thanks. The knots seem to me very well proportioned all around.

I'm not sure on the smaller collars on a larger man, but we'd have to see more pictures. It would be fine, perhaps, if the points meet the lapels, but if they fail to do so, I am not sure that the effect would be flattering (cf. someone who is thinner). But this is a bit nitpicky. Nasser looks good.

 

[Academic2]

@sugarbutch nice photos of the knit ties, thanks. The knots seem to me very well proportioned all around.

[...]

Agreed. For knits, those are great knots, all. They almost make me wish I had more knit ties. Almost.

Regarding knot sizes, there are national considerations which make it hard to evaluate them on aesthetics alone. When you have the heir apparent to the British throne—one of the most important exemplars of style for more than half a century whether we like it or not—rarely using anything other than a small knot, it’s no mystery why one sees so many British gentlemen whom most regard as well-dressed wearing knots which many North Americans regard as too small.

Cheers,

Ac

 

[TweedyProf]

Well, if I were to rationalize why the small knots are pleasing in his case, I think it's partly that Charles favors a DB and partly that he wears a lower shirt collar



There's a smaller space for the tie in the DB/lower collar. The difference with his sons here is instructive, each in a SB, higher shirt collar and larger tie knots.

Compare Michael of Kent with his signature knot in a SB versus a DB




The knot requires a more substantial collar, but, for reasons given above, it seems to work less displeasingly in the SB rather than that DB.

 

[TweedyProf]

@Murlsquirl @Cleav

Gents, when you have a moment, perhaps we should change the title of the thread to "On Tie Knots and Shirt Collars"

 

[TweedyProf]

I'll throw my own Lands End knit on a Kamakura BD for the gallery.

 

[TweedyProf]

Double Post

 

[double00]

great points all - i think we've gone through tie widths, collar style, the amount of shirts showing (i think you could replace a db with a high-roll 3-button sb and have more or less the same impact)...

... i would also add that the tie material also matters. i've been really into light silk twills lately (hermes alphanumerics etc) and it's a very different deal than a super-hearty repp (or the aforementioned chunky knits). so you can accentuate that material with a small knot (or do the double-wrap four-in-hand if you like the 'toddler-fist' sized knot).

 

[SartodiNapoli]

All that can be achieved with a proper tie. Good interlinings are the key.

Not a fan of showing myself on pics, but here I go as classic as my personal style dictamines.

Flannel 1930´s chalkstripes, wide spread collar, FIH, white shirt.
Suscribed to the thread.