On Tie Knots and Shirt Collars

[Andy57]

Having actually touched on the problem (for a medium sized Asian retailer) I would say it is impossible to solve (depending on whether or not you believe AGI to be physically possible), certainly it won't happen for a long time.

When you look at a bespoke shirt maker you are looking at someone who has processed information at a rate of (quick Google) 50GB/s for several decades, someone who has survived through a huge attrition rate in a cut throat competitive environment, selected for both learning ability and innate "talent". And that person is also taking into account a lot of data beyond visual, extremely compressed and well processed, thanks to shared knowledge - you might abstract an entire set of most appropriate fits from "profession = banking", 1 bit of information). What a person does with the shirt matters.

In other words, your training set, pre-processing and algorithm are orders of magnitude worse than the "competition". So will be your results.

What you might reasonably be able to do eventually (on the automation of fit side) is pick the right rough pattern for RTW in a hypothetically ultra-efficient JIT production environment. Many people don't fit standard patterns quite well enough and an athlete might pay a few bucks more for broader shoulders, a larger collar and a thinner waist than the "slim fit" RTW option, for example, without caring that his left shoulder slouch is not taken into account. Certainly the value add is not to the level of bespoke, because for $10-30 I can get the shirt altered by a seamstress which gives me a similar OK-but-not-great fit.

I'm not sure I fully understand your entire point, but I think we agree: there is no substitute for the advice of a good tailor or a good shirtmaker.

 

[Leaves]



Well, that's a good point. I think that the option to discuss (and I don't mean email) various options or ideas by using a video connection (FaceTime, say, or its Google equivalent) might go some way toward ameliorating the issue.

Going even further, with 3D scanners and VR technology put in the right hands, the tech friendly tailor, shirt maker, shoemaker, etc will be able to reach and serve clients that normally can't access custom made clothing. I'm not talking about really high end stuff, I think someone paying $5000 for a suit will still want the whole bespoke experience, but for lower and mid-tier makers it provides possibilities. B&Tailor as an example has agents in Australia and Sweden doing fittings, these guys are not trained tailors (AFAIK), but are forwarding vids and pics back to Korea for the cutter/tailor to work off from. Imagine if the tailor or cutter could use tech to "be there" in the room. It would make his work much easier and would hopefully increase the quality of the end product. We're not there yet but in a few years this kind of tech will probably be cost efficient enough for companies like B&Tailor to use them.

Sorry, OT but an interesting subject.

 

[sugarbutch]

Because shirts are essentially disposable items (unless you have so many that they take forever to wear out), I'm willing to forego perfection for a more reasonable price. I have been pretty happy with my shirts from Luxire in their basic fabrics. It helps that I don't really go in for the luxe fabrics, though. If that's important to you, the value proposition changes a bit. I have pretty successfully iterated my pattern/specs with them over a few orders, but I suspect that Andy may have more stringent standards or a much stronger preference for in-person collaboration than I do. Hard to argue with his results, though!

 

[Deo Veritas]

Going even further, with 3D scanners and VR technology put in the right hands, the tech friendly tailor, shirt maker, shoemaker, etc will be able to reach and serve clients that normally can't access custom made clothing. I'm not talking about really high end stuff, I think someone paying $5000 for a suit will still want the whole bespoke experience, but for lower and mid-tier makers it provides possibilities. B&Tailor as an example has agents in Australia and Sweden doing fittings, these guys are not trained tailors (AFAIK), but are forwarding vids and pics back to Korea for the cutter/tailor to work off from. Imagine if the tailor or cutter could use tech to "be there" in the room. It would make his work much easier and would hopefully increase the quality of the end product. We're not there yet but in a few years this kind of tech will probably be cost efficient enough for companies like B&Tailor to use them.

Sorry, OT but an interesting subject.

Looking forward to that time, as that will streamline things and give the (new) customer far more confidence in going the online route.

Because shirts are essentially disposable items (unless you have so many that they take forever to wear out), I'm willing to forego perfection for a more reasonable price. I have been pretty happy with my shirts from Luxire in their basic fabrics. It helps that I don't really go in for the luxe fabrics, though. If that's important to you, the value proposition changes a bit. I have pretty successfully iterated my pattern/specs with them over a few orders, but I suspect that Andy may have more stringent standards or a much stronger preference for in-person collaboration than I do. Hard to argue with his results, though!

It really does depend on matching the customer needs with the merchant's value proposition. The guidance is sort of lost online, resulting in some further iterations. The best we as online MTM shirtmakers can do is offer a guaranteed fit with respect to your first shirt. Hence, we force the customer to iterate and improve their fit if needed.

We just don't have the luxury of intermediate fittings or the in-person guidance as a value proposition. More so, we offer speed of delivery and a perfected fit through iterations (if necessary), all at a reasonable price.

 

[WillingToLearn]

Just found this thread. I go high / low on shirts. I have some shirts from Geneva that i think have the best collar, and it was basically me telling him what i was after and him creating i, although i suspect he has an "SF-er" pattern, something very similar to what Six diagrammed. I also order a decent amount from PC and have settled on the roma cutaway for the low. i did get a shirt from Simone Abbarchi this Fall and it needs some modification, not super impressed so far, but will give it one more go. Dimples from Cappelli and Hober are the best. I have quite a few ties from Vanda as well and as much as i see the quality in other parts of the tie, the dimpling leaves something to be desired in my mind. I am a big guy - 6'4", 220#, 54-56L, so everything needs to be in proportion - so i like ties that tie a think not, but that has to be balanced with the height/length of the knot.

 

[scatterbrain]

How do you guys tie ties that have a very light interlining and a very light silk? The tie below, for example, always tends to tie a knot that is too long and too thin for my taste. Which knot do you think is best?
1) schoolboy

2) fih

3)half Windsor

4) this weird bastard of a knot I learned a few years ago (can't remember what it's called)

5) full cad

As an aside, the way this tie tends to fold instead of dimple really bothers me. I'll probably sell it soon.

 

[Andy57]

I have a few unlined 7-fold ties that tie super-skinny four-in-hand knots. I'm not averse to tying a half-windsor in those cases. But, for the most part, if a tie won't tie a decent four-in-hand, out the door it goes.

 

[House of KYDOS]

@scatterbrain The thin knot, obviously has to do with the weight of the fabric and the number of fabric layers at the knot area. Wearing a light weight and unlined necktie is a matter of personal taste; I enjoy lightweight ties, because in Greece we have mostly hot weather and a lightweight tie feels cooler and like a silf scarf (i.e. feels like you are not wearing a tie at all) and still looks great

 

[Mr. Six]

The knot length is related to the width of the blade. You'd probably have to tie it longer to get a shorter knot. A double FIH might widen the bottom of the knot, but that wouldn't help much with shortening the knot. Personally, I think the FIH that you tied looks nice. That's how the tie was made, and it shows the tiemaker's intent. But if you don't like it, that's all that matters.

This one of mine isn't too dissimilar. The knot came out longer than I wanted, but I didn't bother re-tying it. I think it was a standard FIH. I often use a Knize knot, but this madder is a bit too chalky for that. I'll probably adjust how I tie it next time I wear it to get a little bit shorter knot.

 

[Wrong Crowd]

Recently found this thread, finally got all caught up. I have plenty of mainline Zegna ties, and I never have trouble getting a nice knot and dimple with them, but I recently acquired a Quindici and it's a bastard to tie. The bottom of the knot turns out way too wide, and it doesn't want to tighten or dimple- it almost feels like the interlining is too stiff or something. If anyone else has had a similar problem with a Quindici, how did they solve it?

 

[flvinny521]

@Deo Veritas Send me a plaster mold with a return shipping package so you have a perfect replication of my torso!

 

[Deo Veritas]

@Deo Veritas Send me a plaster mold with a return shipping package so you have a perfect replication of my torso!

Perhaps in the future!

 

[CharlesThe1337]

I'm not sure if this is the place to ask a question like this, and I apologize if it isn't. But I was wondering if anyone had any commentary on the quality of Barneys New York house brand of ties. Many of them state to have been made in Italy, and they have some attractive designs at a reasonable price. Obviously I don't expect them to be on the level of Drakes, Brioni, etc. But how are they in comparison to say, Brooks Brothers?

On another note, I've been lurking in this thread lately after recently becoming interested in neckwear. I want to thank everyone for providing me with some good knowledge, as well as motivation and inspiration! Now all I need to do is find more opportunities to wear neckwear.

 

[Wrong Crowd]

I'm not sure if this is the place to ask a question like this, and I apologize if it isn't. But I was wondering if anyone had any commentary on the quality of Barneys New York house brand of ties. Many of them state to have been made in Italy, and they have some attractive designs at a reasonable price. Obviously I don't expect them to be on the level of Drakes, Brioni, etc. But how are they in comparison to say, Brooks Brothers?

On another note, I've been lurking in this thread lately after recently becoming interested in neckwear. I want to thank everyone for providing me with some good knowledge, as well as motivation and inspiration! Now all I need to do is find more opportunities to wear neckwear.

I picked up this Barney's house label tie a little while back:



I did a little research on the tag and as far as I can tell, it was made by Piattelli back when their quality was better. This tie ties a good knot and has a good handfeel- I'd put it slightly above Brooks Brothers, but only slightly. Pattern is more soporific (in a good way, see the soporific ties thread) than anything I've ever gotten from BB, though. I can't speak to the quality of their current offerings, but if you're seeing some of their older stuff on eBay, go for it.

 

[House of KYDOS]

You can tell there is a technique to achieving it. That is the problem in my mind.

While we were working on our new 3-fold lightly lined ties, i recalled our short discussion on the double and single dimple knots, the reason was that during our testing the double dimple knot wasnt coming as easy as it did with our unlined 7-fold ties. with the 7-fold ones, the fabric was so more flexible, easier to set in the place one likes, kind of working with clay, while the 3-fold ones having, even with a very light interling, needed extra effort to achieve the same result.

for easy reference here are the two knots:
the 3-fold one

and the the 7-fold one:

Paris