my visit to Napoli & Mina @ Napoli Su Misura

[TheFoo]



Foofy, you fall prey to false choices far too easily.

Spoiler

My premise is not at all that LH is somehow mistaken. (I'm not actually interested in the explanation but I'll ask rhetorically how you arrived at that conclusion.)

You can admire Naplesteez and be a fan of Rubinacci and think that Mariano's shoulders don't look so good. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that's a somewhat common opinion since his jackets were rather clearly made for a younger man.


I'm - quite obviously - not immune to speculation and theorizing. But, as I rather explicitly stated, we've reached the point where the only way I can explain my thinking more concretely is for you to see they physical object I'm discussing.

Next time you're in London, (Nay's second marriage?) I'll buy you a cup of tea and I'll make sure the waiter is nice to you.

Let me break down my reasoning for you, in case it wasn't clear. Mariano Rubinacci's own Rubinacci jackets are the most likely to be exemplars of his own tailoring house. He has new things made, you know. They fit similarly, with the same "droop." Moreover, others' Rubinacci jackets are similar, with a few outliers. Hence, if you think Mariano's jacket's are mistakes, you think Rubinacci's house style--in its most unadulterated iteration--is mistaken. I'm not painting a false choice. Rather, I don't think you realize what choice you were making.

 

[TheFoo]

Mariano had this black cashmere dinner jacket made for LH's anniversary celebration at the Italian embassy in London a couple of years ago. Notice the droop.

Notice the droop on Nick Foulkes as well.

 

[whnay.]

My A&S jackets do that as well.

 

[unbelragazzo]



That, if you recall, was in response to Cantabrigian's suggestion that the NSM shoulder is correct, whereas Rubinacci's is a mistake. Yes, I think it is a preposterous position to take. If one should serve as a reference for correctness, it is not NSM. That is only sensible, as one far predates the other and has consistently made the same sort of thing all that time.

If the point you were trying to make is that Rubi's shoulder line is not a mistake, then OK - but from the way you wrote it, it certainly sounds as if you're saying, in addition, that it would be ridiculous to want a "Neapolitan" style jacket that didn't have Rubi's shoulder line. In other words, that Rubi's shoulder line is the ONLY right one for Neapolitan jackets.

It belies all credulity that a tailoring company calling itself "Napoli Su Misura" isn't trying to leverage the pre-existing reputation of Neapolitan tailoring. I'm only assuming they are competent and named themselves thoughtfully.

"Neapolitan tailoring" far predates NSM. Anything that defined it was invented a long time ago. Rubinacci has been around ever since Neapolitan tailoring was anything worth mentioning. Foreign tailors, bespoke clients, and other authorities on men's clothing often refer to Rubinacci as a primary example of Neapolitan tailoring. These are all facts. If you are trying to argue that NSM is as valid a reference for "Neapolitan tailoring, when the only meaningful sense of "Neapolitan tailoring" is defined by tradition and past practice, I think you are bound to fail. When it comes to identifying tailoring styles, age and reputation obviously matter.

We have both agreed that "Neapolitan tailoring" is difficult to define, but that it definitely, and most crucially, involves softly tailored/minimally padded jackets, and that NsM's jackets are indeed constructed in this way. We could also go over other details that are arguably distinctive of Neapolitan tailoring that NsM generally uses. Rubinacci is certainly a well respected house, and closely associated with Neapolitan style. Just to reiterate, I am certainly not disputing Rubinacci's position as an authority on and creator of Neapolitan style. But, as you say, there are different ways of doing things, and "not Rubinacci" is not a synonym for "not Neapolitan".

Nor am I claiming that NsM should be viewed as the final word on what constitutes a Neapolitan jacket. As you say, that enterprise would be bound to fail. I'm stating that NsM has many of the elements that are commonly associated with Neapolitan style, its jackets are made in (or just outside) Naples, and it is run by someone who has worked in the Neapolitan clothing industry for a long time. The use of "Napoli" in the name of the company is completely honest and appropriate, and your insinuations (and you are definitely insinuating this, despite leaving yourself plausible deniability by use of a soft drink metaphor) that they are some sort of fraud are ridiculous. I wish you would discuss your opinions and observations on their jackets without questioning their integrity, even if two posts later you say how sure you are that they are very nice and willing to correct mistakes.

 

[TheFoo]



If the point you were trying to make is that Rubi's shoulder line is not a mistake, then OK - but from the way you wrote it, it certainly sounds as if you're saying, in addition, that it would be ridiculous to want a "Neapolitan" style jacket that didn't have Rubi's shoulder line. In other words, that Rubi's shoulder line is the ONLY right one for Neapolitan jackets.

No. You overreach. The correct conclusion is that, if one is mistaken (between NSM and Rubinacci), it is more likely NSM.

We have both agreed that "Neapolitan tailoring" is difficult to define, but that it definitely, and most crucially, involves softly tailored/minimally padded jackets, and that NsM's jackets are indeed constructed in this way. We could also go over other details that are arguably distinctive of Neapolitan tailoring that NsM generally uses. Rubinacci is certainly a well respected house, and closely associated with Neapolitan styleJust to reiterate, I am certainly not disputing Rubinacci's authority as an authority and creator of Neapolitan style. But, as you say, there are different ways of doing things, and "not Rubinacci" is not a synonym for "not Neapolitan".

Yes, and they have already been established. Neapolitan tailoring is not a new thing. I have not seen any other Neapolitan jacket with natural, unpadded shoulders that are upturned at the ends. Forget the fact I think it is intrinsically ugly. The bigger point is that it has no roots in Neapolitan tailoring, and hence, is not "Neapolitan." Show me consistent examples from another credible, established Neapolitan tailor, and I'll eat my words.

Nor am I claiming that NsM should be viewed as the final word on what constitutes a Neapolitan jacket. As you say, that enterprise would be bound to fail. I'm stating that NsM has many of the elements that are commonly associated with Neapolitan style, its jackets are made in (or just outside) Naples, and it is run by someone who has worked in the Neapolitan clothing industry for a long time. The use of "Napoli" in the name of the company is completely honest and appropriate, and your insinuations (and you are definitely insinuating this, despite leaving yourself plausible deniability by use of a soft drink metaphor) that they are some sort of fraud are ridiculous. I wish you could discuss your opinions and observations on their jackets without questioning their integrity, even if two posts later you say how sure you are that they are very nice and willing to correct mistakes.

I don't want to be hostile with you, but you are forcing my hand.

Did I ever say they are committing fraud? Did I ever say they aren't from Naples or making things there? Aren't you an academic? I would have assumed you'd be more acute with the conclusions you draw. To put it more simply and more colorfully: "Napoli Su Misura" is a cheesy name. It's not fraudulent. It just suggests that the business caters to customers who most want a "Neapolitan" suit, not necessarily a good suit made in Naples. Whether that is true or not is a separate matter, but that is what the name suggests. Then, I see all these awful, messed up shoulders and my skepticism takes root.

 

[TheFoo]



My A&S jackets do that as well.

Yeah, 'cause there is some badass extension on those. When I tried your A&S jacket on, it was like I had wings. My Rubinacci jackets do it too, but not to the same extent, as there is no extension.

 

[dopey]

Mariano's stuff looks worse and worse to me. I don't like Foulkes's either, but it doesn't look bad. What I hate so much about the Mariano version is that the extension and droop creates a false shoulder both wide of and below the real shoulder line. There is no attempt to conceal that the shoulder line isn't "natural" but rather extended. This is what the better LH examples avoid -on those you have to look hard to tell whether or not the person's shoulders correspond to the coat's shoulders. On MR's, they obviously don't. I have no doubt that is the target he is aiming for since he keeps hitting it, but I just don't get it.

Basically, the less extension and droop they do, the better it ends up looking.

 

[unbelragazzo]

You are being far too much of a lawyer and not nearly enough of a gentleman. No, you are not accusing them of fraud in the legal sense. But you do compare them to a knock-off Cola brand.

I've said all that I care to say about this at this point, and I have tickets to the Nats game tonight, so I'll let others take what they want from our exchange.

 

[TheFoo]



You are being far too much of a lawyer and not nearly enough of a gentleman. No, you are not accusing them of fraud in the legal sense. But you do compare them to a knock-off Cola brand.

You're kidding, right?

 

[Grammaton Cleric]

Damn, I can't believe this thread is still active.

I have a serious question for the Foo (and I don't ask this to start a fight) - aren't you an associate in investment banking? How in the world do you have the time to spend hours and hours typing this stuff up during a workday?

 

[dopey]



My A&S jackets do that as well.

I can't remember. Did you like them? Obviously, you switched all your stuff to LH and get a different look (which is a great one, I think), but I can't recall if you liked the A&S cut or not.

 

[TheFoo]



Damn, I can't believe this thread is still active.

I have a serious question for the Foo (and I don't ask this to start a fight) - aren't you an associate in investment banking? How in the world do you have the time to spend hours and hours typing this stuff up during a workday?

Spills out like drool.

 

[Grammaton Cleric]



Spills out like drool.

I dunno, man - when I did my tour of duty in IB, I had hardly anytime to myself prior to 6-7pm (until the sr guys left). The nights are a wasteland though - sitting away waiting for the copy guys to get the drafts done.

Anyway, fwiw, I agree that the pa-fucked issue exists, but it doesn't seem that bad or noticeable to me.

 

[TheFoo]



I dunno, man - when I did my tour of duty in IB, I had hardly anytime to myself prior to 6-7pm (until the sr guys left). The nights are a wasteland though - sitting away waiting for the copy guys to get the drafts done.

Anyway, fwiw, I agree that the pa-fucked issue exists, but it doesn't seem that bad or noticeable to me.

Really? My experience is somewhat reversed. The nights are when you get time to actually work on things, rather than cater to random MD requests during the day.

 

[Grammaton Cleric]



Really? My experience is somewhat reversed. The nights are when you get time to actually work on things, rather than cater to random MD requests during the day.

Right - that was kinda my point. That the days are continually packed with conf. calls, random meetings / requests, but the nights are when things open up to do actual work (or poast on SF). Though there was always that brain-numbing couple of hours from midnight - 2am, where'd you'd wait around for the copy center guys to finish so you could flip the books. And *sigh* you always had to flip the books.