Japanese Shoes: Bespoke & RTW Super Thread

[daizawaguy]

the vamp sits lower than it does on just about any of my other shoes,

It's wide enough and has enough volume across the joints and at the ball, which tends to be my biggest challenge. And it's plenty full enough in the instep for my feet, as they lace all the way closed. What I initially perceived as slight discomfort in that area just behind the joints I now perceive as a wonderfully close fit, perhaps toward that 'bespoke' end of the spectrum as others have described here.

I do get just a touch of heel slippage. It almost feels not that the shoe is too long but more that the top of the heel just sits a little low, if that makes sense.

Fit aside, they are definitely a joy to hold in the hand. Such a great example of craftsmanship.

On YF RTW - Well said - the thing that had me sell mine eventually, and believe I should have taken a half size up, was this low vamp issue, but I guess that may be evident even at a larger size. I felt I was constrained in my walking.

Has the dreaded bumps on the insole appeared? I guess to give that sleek look the insole is very thin, and the pressure from the foot soon sees the hand stitching from the welt cause bumps? A sign of a hand stitched shoe, but mine cause a bunion and callous! But you are right, a beautiful shoe...

 

[acapaca]

On YF RTW - Well said - the thing that had me sell mine eventually, and believe I should have taken a half size up, was this low vamp issue, but I guess that may be evident even at a larger size. I felt I was constrained in my walking.

Has the dreaded bumps on the insole appeared? I guess to give that sleek look the insole is very thin, and the pressure from the foot soon sees the hand stitching from the welt cause bumps? A sign of a hand stitched shoe, but mine cause a bunion and callous! But you are right, a beautiful shoe...

Yeah, I've been wondering about what you mentioned. It's not the easiest thing to photograph, that's for sure, but here's a couple pics inside one of my shoes.

Are those little ridges what you were talking about? I can't say that I've noticed any sensation coming from there, but I'll pay it attention next time I wear them.

While we're on the subject, I'd love to be educated about what all you can ascertain from a shoe by looking at this view. I heard it mentioned once before that seeing these little stitches is the sign of a hand welted shoe, but I guess I don't really understand how that works. I had commented in some other thread, I believe, that I prefer the full liner that my Passus shoes have, and someone else commented that with the half liner you can see the nice evidence of the hand stitching, but to me that didn't seem like enough benefit to outweigh the comfort from the full liner. (Occasionally those half liners will start to pull away for me, particularly in loafers I wear without socks.)

At any rate, I guess if you can see a full-on stitch, then it's Blake? If it looks like this, then it's hand stitched? And if it's Goodyear welt you won't see a thing? I really don't know. I feel like I've learned enough now about the relative strengths and weaknesses of all the different styles, but I'm not always 100% sure I know what I am looking at.

 

[florent]

At any rate, I guess if you can see a full-on stitch, then it's Blake? If it looks like this, then it's hand stitched? And if it's Goodyear welt you won't see a thing? I really don't know. I feel like I've learned enough now about the relative strengths and weaknesses of all the different styles, but I'm not always 100% sure I know what I am looking at.

You're right. With handwelting the stitching go "through" the insole so it pushes the leather toward the inside of the shoes, forming these bumps. With goodyear the stitching go through the gemming which is exterior to the insole so it doesn't move anything. And Blake is quite obvious

 

[daizawaguy]

Ah, that’s the same as I experienced. Only thing one of those bumps caused me a corn! For those that are more experienced in hand welted, how pronounced is the bumps caused by the handwelting, and is it caused because the insoles are very thin to give it that sleek look I wonder?

As for the technical details of a handwelt, perhaps a google will give enough or better information than I could do, but basically the welt in sewn directly to the insole, which has been prepared underneath to take the stitches with a groove. The insole due to this preparation is never as flat as another type of welt, but the thickness of the insole and preparation internally can and should create a comfortable base. I wonder how the RTW hand welted insole compares to the bespoke? I would be interested to hear details on this.

 

[daizawaguy]

I just found this picture of when the shoe was new - I had forgotten about this, but even when new the bumps are pretty evident, only to get worse as your foot creates a mold in the insole. One of those hit the ball of my foot and created the corn - even if professionally removed the fact that it’s in the same place creates quite a physical issue to comfort.

 

[clee1982]

I only have three handwelt shoes (two AM, one Xibao/OctTenth), all RTW, the bump has never been a problem now I feel like checking why...

 

[daizawaguy]

Now that’s interesting. On my bespoke shoes the insoles are never perfectly flat after some wear - of course foot pressure and ability of the sole to mound into the shape of the foot is a big advantage of the leather insole, and sometimes small irregularities can be seen (aside from nail holes) but if the YF RTW are like that new, then for a shoe of this price it’s very disappointing. I wonder what others think?

 

[clee1982]

ok, just actually checked, yes there are bumps just not very noticeable.

So first Xibao/OctTenth (zero wear due to COVID...)

AM Argeuntum handwelt, you feel the bump if you put your hand in it, but hard to capture (also zero wear due to COVID...)

AM, argentum handwelt, with some wear (~4 years?)

none of the bump ever cost discomfort for sure, or I wasn't even aware until I checked it

 

[BColl_Has_Too_Many_Shoes]

That is a good question. I suspect YF is using a smaller insole to follow the curvatures of the last. So he has to have it cut smaller (tighter), but not necessarily thinner. For thickness or lack thereof, he could be using something other than shoulder or belly leather for the insoles (which tend to be thicker), and/or the insoles could just plainly be thinner to begin with (regardless of leather type).
That would be something worth inquiring about with him.

I believe Oct. Tenth uses a thicker insole. So, it should yield a more comfortable footbed because it is deeper. I know many of the Austrian shoemakers use a thick insole.

As for myself, I have many HW shoes and none display the ridges as prominently as those YF. This includes my Bespoke pairs. To be fair, for Bespoke orders I specifically mention the insoles and how I prefer them to be on the thicker side.

 

[j ingevaldsson]

^^^ All hand welted shoes have dimples to some extent, it's the nature of the construction. It can vary a lot how pronounced they are (also between pairs from the same maker), due to how the fibres are in the sole leather (can vary between hides and I believe even between areas of the hides even if only shoulders are used), how the stitching is made, etc. None of the insoles are relatively thin though, since you can't use thin insoles for hand welting. You can also have pronounced dimples on thick insoles, and vice versa. And the thickness of the insoles has nothing to do with if a shoe is elegant or sturdy. A bunch of nail holes and fuzz you also have in all hand welted and hand lasted shoes, also the nature of the construction.

None of the examples shown earlier look off in any way to me, in any direction (not Fukuda's either). If someone happen to experience bunions from it, I think it's just more of bad luck than anything else. It's a very rare thing, have only heard about it a couple of times during my 10+ years being part of this "world". Personally have very sensitive feet in general and have shoes with both very pronounced and not so pronounced dimples, none have caused any concerns.

 

[BColl_Has_Too_Many_Shoes]

^^^ All hand welted shoes have dimples to some extent, it's the nature of the construction. It can vary a lot how pronounced they are (also between pairs from the same maker), due to how the fibres are in the sole leather (can vary between hides and I believe even between areas of the hides even if only shoulders are used), how the stitching is made, etc. None of the insoles are relatively thin though, since you can't use thin insoles for hand welting. You can also have pronounced dimples on thick insoles, and vice versa. And the thickness of the insoles has nothing to do with if a shoe is elegant or sturdy. A bunch of nail holes and fuzz you also have in all hand welted and hand lasted shoes, also the nature of the construction.

None of the examples shown earlier look off in any way to me, in any direction (not Fukuda's either). If someone happen to experience bunions from it, I think it's just more of bad luck than anything else. It's a very rare thing, have only heard about it a couple of times during my 10+ years being part of this "world". Personally have very sensitive feet in general and have shoes with both very pronounced and not so pronounced dimples, none have caused any concerns.

Yes I agree the ridges or dimples or however you wish to categorize it are a result of the HW process. I recall someone else mentioning how prominent their dimples were on their YFs RTWs.

As mentioned, all of my shoes exhibit those ridges just not as prominently. As you said, I don't believe there is something inherently wrong with the craftsmanship of the shoes. Saying that, I would still be curious (for curiousity sakes) what they use in YF's shoes.

 

[j ingevaldsson]

Yes I agree the ridges or dimples or however you wish to categorize it are a result of the HW process. I recall someone else mentioning how prominent their dimples were on their YFs RTWs.

As mentioned, all of my shoes exhibit those ridges just not as prominently. As you said, I don't believe there is something inherently wrong with the craftsmanship of the shoes. Saying that, I would still be curious (for curiousity sakes) what they use in YF's shoes.

Fukuda mainly use Baker shoulders if I remember correctly, at least for his bespoke, but likely also for the RTW/MTO since same material overall are used in those. Checked my five bespoke pairs and dimples are relatively pronounced in those as well, vary a bit (as always, due to reasons I mentioned before) but surely overall above average (have pairs from others that are similar though, so as mentioned not unique at all). I believe they go rather deep with the awl, most likely reason for it.

Pictures of raw insoles drying on lasts (surely not thin):

Other pic showing the insole in full thickness:

Picture of the insole after welting. Looks standard (apart from being very neatly done), which makes it likely that it's the awl holes that go rather deep in the insole:

 

[BColl_Has_Too_Many_Shoes]

Fukuda mainly use Baker shoulders if I remember correctly, at least for his bespoke, but likely also for the RTW/MTO since same material overall are used in those. Checked my five bespoke pairs and dimples are relatively pronounced in those as well, vary a bit (as always, due to reasons I mentioned before) but surely overall above average (have pairs from others that are similar though, so as mentioned not unique at all). I believe they go rather deep with the awl, most likely reason for it.

Pictures of raw insoles drying on lasts (surely not thin):

View attachment 1502443


Other pic showing the insole in full thickness:

View attachment 1502474


Picture of the insole after welting. Looks standard (apart from being very neatly done), which makes it likely that it's the awl holes that go rather deep in the insole:

View attachment 1502446

The picture of the insole after welting is extremely neat. Looks like what a maker or salesperson would use to demonstrate the process of handwelting.

The insole picture looks good as well. Although,
Fukuda-San, personally, told me that J&FJ insoles and soles are used for Bespoke shoes only.

Italian Insoles and JR soles for RTW and MTO shoes. I would presume he uses Italian shoulder for his insoles, but that I failed to ask.

 

[j ingevaldsson]

The picture of the insole after welting is extremely neat. Looks like what a maker or salesperson would use to demonstrate the process of handwelting.

The insole picture looks good as well. Although,
Fukuda-San, personally, told me that J&FJ insoles and soles are used for Bespoke shoes only.

Italian Insoles and JR soles for RTW and MTO shoes. I would presume he uses Italian shoulder for his insoles, but that I failed to ask.

Aha, but then we do know that it's not due to material, but how they do the punching/stitching, since dimples on my bespoke with Baker soles are similar to the RTW/MTO ones with Italian insoles.

Very neat indeed. These are my first pair, made five years ago or so. Part of the clean look is since Yohei (and Japanese in general) use less sticky thread wax than standard in Europe. Since, in general, Japanese folks are smaller and lighter than their international customers been some fears that maybe they wouldn't manage to hold up as well for a guy like me who is 192cm long and weigh 100 kg, with this slim waists and neatly done stuff, with less wax holding things together etc. No problems whatsoever yet though, that first pair have been back for a re-heeling and will likely be resoled next year, then we'll see even more how they've hold up inside as well.

Edit: Other clean Japanese hand welting on shoes of mine. Hiro Yanagimachi:

Main d'Or:

 

[clee1982]

those looks great even though I'll never be able to peek "under the hood"