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J. Gordon Holt grows up

Discussion in 'Fine Living, Home, Design & Auto' started by Sprezzatura2010, Jul 8, 2009.

  1. T4phage

    T4phage Senior member

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    some cumdumpsters here seem to prefer to attack the person instead of the arguement. maybe it would be nice to have the various ips exposed no?
     
  2. audiophilia

    audiophilia Senior member

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    No.

    What a complete fucking bore this interwebz drama is. Stick to healthy discussions. Ignore the shit.
     
  3. jcharlesholt

    jcharlesholt New Member

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    [​IMG] indeed.

    Stereophile classes up their obit by showing a picture of a man who died from COPD with a cigarette in his hand. http://www.stereophile.com/news/j_gordon_holt/


    Unfortunately, pretty much every picture Stereophile has of my father showed him with a cigarette. He smoked two and a half packs a day for forty years. He came down with cancer in '89, and still didn't quit. It wasn't until he was diagnosed with emphysema a number of years later that he finally gave it up, but by then it was too late.

    Going back earlier in this conversation, here's a few things I can relate:

    * My father used zipcord off a spool at Radio Shack as his speaker cable for many years. Why? Because his own testing and measurements showed that no one could consistently tell the difference. Later in life he used name brand cables because they had been sent by a manufacturer, had proper lugs, and better shielding.

    * Back in 1988, Arnie Nudell of Infinity came out to set up some Infinity IRS-Beta loudspeakers. Unfortunately, a difference was heard between the left and right channels, and another speaker was brought in. It also sounded different, but I remember very clearly my father running a sweep with his Neutrik 3201 Audiotracer and the graph showed basically no measurable difference between the two. A difference could be heard, but it wasn't showing up in the measurements. Measurement was an important part of what my father did, but what he heard was ultimately what mattered.

    Thanks for the interesting thread.
     
  4. voxsartoria

    voxsartoria Senior member

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    Thanks for the interesting thread.

    My condolences for your loss. Take the appearence of a thread like this on a clothing forum to be just one of I am sure many examples of the influence that your father had on people that he never met.

    I always enjoyed and appreciated what he wrote.


    - B
     
  5. A Y

    A Y Senior member

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    Sorry for your loss, too, and thanks for sharing little bit more about him. His memory and work will be felt for a long time and by many people.

    --Andre
     
  6. Artisan Fan

    Artisan Fan Senior member

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    Unfortunately, pretty much every picture Stereophile has of my father showed him with a cigarette. He smoked two and a half packs a day for forty years. He came down with cancer in '89, and still didn't quit. It wasn't until he was diagnosed with emphysema a number of years later that he finally gave it up, but by then it was too late.

    Going back earlier in this conversation, here's a few things I can relate:

    * My father used zipcord off a spool at Radio Shack as his speaker cable for many years. Why? Because his own testing and measurements showed that no one could consistently tell the difference. Later in life he used name brand cables because they had been sent by a manufacturer, had proper lugs, and better shielding.

    * Back in 1988, Arnie Nudell of Infinity came out to set up some Infinity IRS-Beta loudspeakers. Unfortunately, a difference was heard between the left and right channels, and another speaker was brought in. It also sounded different, but I remember very clearly my father running a sweep with his Neutrik 3201 Audiotracer and the graph showed basically no measurable difference between the two. A difference could be heard, but it wasn't showing up in the measurements. Measurement was an important part of what my father did, but what he heard was ultimately what mattered.

    Thanks for the interesting thread.



    I'm sorry for your loss. My first Stereophile issue was bought in 1988. Have not missed an issue since. It has been a joy to read every month.

    I think the bolded part here is perhaps the most valuable legacy of your father. Subjective assessments do matter and they are a critical part, along with measurements, of design at the better high end audio manufacturers.
     
  7. audiophilia

    audiophilia Senior member

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    Unfortunately, pretty much every picture Stereophile has of my father showed him with a cigarette. He smoked two and a half packs a day for forty years. He came down with cancer in '89, and still didn't quit. It wasn't until he was diagnosed with emphysema a number of years later that he finally gave it up, but by then it was too late.

    Going back earlier in this conversation, here's a few things I can relate:

    * My father used zipcord off a spool at Radio Shack as his speaker cable for many years. Why? Because his own testing and measurements showed that no one could consistently tell the difference. Later in life he used name brand cables because they had been sent by a manufacturer, had proper lugs, and better shielding.

    * Back in 1988, Arnie Nudell of Infinity came out to set up some Infinity IRS-Beta loudspeakers. Unfortunately, a difference was heard between the left and right channels, and another speaker was brought in. It also sounded different, but I remember very clearly my father running a sweep with his Neutrik 3201 Audiotracer and the graph showed basically no measurable difference between the two. A difference could be heard, but it wasn't showing up in the measurements. Measurement was an important part of what my father did, but what he heard was ultimately what mattered.

    Thanks for the interesting thread.


    Sincere condolences. I read your dad. A lot! He will be missed.

    'There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
    Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.'
     
  8. For Brutus

    For Brutus Member

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    jcharlesholt,

    I would also like to offer condolences. I found your father's magazine to be a wonderful resource. I often paraphrase his article, "Why Hifi Experts Disagree" when discussing subjective topics with people.

    I appriciate you pointing out to the original poster that we can't always measure what we can hear. In a very real sense it's too easy to assume we already measure all that is important. There is lots of snake oil in the industry but that doesn't negate the truth of the point.

    Sprezz,
    I hope you will now tone down the venum you aim at those who disagree with you. I think it seems clear that Mr Holt was truely interested in the final product. It doesn't if that product was delivered via lap cord or gold cord.
     
  9. A Y

    A Y Senior member

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    I appriciate you pointing out to the original poster that we can't always measure what we can hear. In a very real sense it's too easy to assume we already measure all that is important.

    Actually, the opposite is true: we can easily measure far more than we can hear. The real problems are either digging the right information out of a mountain of data, or accidentally throwing it away.

    --Andre
     
  10. Artisan Fan

    Artisan Fan Senior member

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    Actually, the opposite is true: we can easily measure far more than we can hear. The real problems are either digging the right information out of a mountain of data, or accidentally throwing it away.

    --Andre


    Wrong. [​IMG]
     
  11. A Y

    A Y Senior member

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    Wrong. [​IMG]

    Please prove that I'm wrong.

    --Andre
     
  12. For Brutus

    For Brutus Member

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    Actually, the opposite is true: we can easily measure far more than we can hear. The real problems are either digging the right information out of a mountain of data, or accidentally throwing it away.

    --Andre


    I think it's some of what you said, and more. We can measure a lot but we don't always know what is important and what isn't, a lack of understanding. We probably also are missing somethings that we should measure.
     
  13. A Y

    A Y Senior member

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    I think it's some of what you said, and more. We can measure a lot but we don't always know what is important and what isn't, a lack of understanding. We probably also are missing somethings that we should measure.
    That sounds right to me. The reason we miss some things we should measure is not because we can't measure it, but because of a lack of understanding. --Andre
     
  14. Artisan Fan

    Artisan Fan Senior member

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    I think it's some of what you said, and more. We can measure a lot but we don't always know what is important and what isn't, a lack of understanding. We probably also are missing somethings that we should measure.

    This.
     
  15. Artisan Fan

    Artisan Fan Senior member

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    That sounds right to me. The reason we miss some things we should measure is not because we can't measure it, but because of a lack of understanding.

    --Andre


    True but then at the end of the day we have not fully captured the audio experience. The best approach I believe is a combination of subjective and objective tests.
     
  16. For Brutus

    For Brutus Member

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    This is why I agree with Mr Holt. Measurements are important because they can help us understand what is really going on. However, we shouldn't ignore actually using our ears. We may not be able describe in physics terms what we are hearing but we often are rather sensitive to small changes.

    Of course the problem with trusting just our hearing is the way we can precieve the same thing differently under different conditions. Our brains can also be tricked. As a visual analogy look at optical illusions. The two lines are the same length but our brian says otherwise. And of course the plasebo affect is real. I was disgusted when I saw a website claiming great things if you used their ceramic speaker wire supports to lift your wires off the ground. These "custom made" ceramic things were nothing more than insulators used on power lines. They likely cost the power company $2-3 each. This site was asking something like $50 or $90 each. Sadly that sort of stuff does give audio a bad name.
     
  17. Artisan Fan

    Artisan Fan Senior member

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    This is why I agree with Mr Holt. Measurements are important because they can help us understand what is really going on. However, we shouldn't ignore actually using our ears. We may not be able describe in physics terms what we are hearing but we often are rather sensitive to small changes.

    Of course the problem with trusting just our hearing is the way we can precieve the same thing differently under different conditions. Our brains can also be tricked. As a visual analogy look at optical illusions. The two lines are the same length but our brian says otherwise. And of course the plasebo affect is real. I was disgusted when I saw a website claiming great things if you used their ceramic speaker wire supports to lift your wires off the ground. These "custom made" ceramic things were nothing more than insulators used on power lines. They likely cost the power company $2-3 each. This site was asking something like $50 or $90 each. Sadly that sort of stuff does give audio a bad name.


    Agreed. My friend actually found these insulators at Home Depot for cheap $. Just needed to cut off the wood screw on the bottom.
     
  18. A Y

    A Y Senior member

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    This is why I agree with Mr Holt. Measurements are important because they can help us understand what is really going on. However, we shouldn't ignore actually using our ears. We may not be able describe in physics terms what we are hearing but we often are rather sensitive to small changes.

    I agree with this, too. Listening is used to validate measurements, and measurements are used to make sure what you heard is repeatable. Where a lot of audio companies fall down is the rigor with which they apply these two tools.

    --Andre
     
  19. Artisan Fan

    Artisan Fan Senior member

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    I agree with this, too. Listening is used to validate measurements, and measurements are used to make sure what you heard is repeatable. Where a lot of audio companies fall down is the rigor with which they apply these two tools.

    --Andre


    I don't disagree with this, however it seems to be getting better with the more established brands like Wilson, Levinson, Revel, ARC, C-J, etc.
     

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