Is the suit biz fibbing? Does it matter?

[Brad]

Originally Posted by Artisan Fan

This is just slander considering you have not presented any evidence that Kiton has not put this amount of time in their suits.

AF, can you tell me what defamation is? Or, the difference between slander and libel?

 

[satorstyle]

For example I hand sew a pretty mean button hole. I'm good and a large button hole takes me around 20- 25 mins to complete one, they are very close to a quality Kiton or Brioni hole. The tailors from these firms are certainly better than me but I can't imagine them making them much faster, so you're at about two hours just for button holes. They also mention the breast pocket is hand set and takes approximately four hours. You could take a year to make a suit that does not make it well made. The finest manufactures all probably started with primarily handmade products, but they are in fact businesses for profit. Technology and easier methods of construction allow the ability to produce more garments with very good quality. When fusing is introduced I'm going fully bespoke.

 

[johnapril]

****, AF. If you have the cash and the time (you may not have the latter, so I then understand the choice to go with Keyton), go to a little place recommended by Andrew or Matt or, heaven forbid, Anton, and have something handmade for you. See if that suits you. Let go of all this Keyton e-chat. Watch it float off to Page 2...3...4...

 

[a tailor]

Originally Posted by Dragon

Just pondering, right?

Kiton only exaggerates in the chest, but Oxxford exaggerates more (chest AND shoulder).



I am nearly no expert, but I think there are different types of machine stitches. When we say machine stitch, we imagine very quick sewing machines, but I assume that the machine stitches used in Kiton or others are more close to handmade stitches or try to be close.

In Kiton there are probably skilled tailors (probably not artisan level, but somewhat trained and skilled) using very slow sewing machines that are the closest thing to duplicating a human hand sewn stitch. That would explain the high quality in the garments.

Just like there is a big difference in quality of hand sewn work, there must be a difference (like the difference between Zegna and Kiton) in machine work

sorry but by machine is by machine and by hand is by hand. and never the twain shall meet.
each can be good or bad. each has its own place.

 

[Cantabrigian]

Originally Posted by Tomasso

Italians are known to BS, but if you're a confidant they'll give you a wink to let you know when it's getting deep. AF, either they ain't winking or you ain't catching it.
I thought you didn't like Italians.

 

[itsstillmatt]

Originally Posted by a tailor

sorry but by machine is by machine and by hand is by hand. and never the twain shall meet.
each can be good or bad. each has its own place.
Alex, any opinion on the opened up examples? It would be nice to have the opinion of A Tailor ;-).

 

[Artisan Fan]

Please show me where it says 22-24 hours of hand work

I have a copy of an interview with Kiton that Jay MacInerney did where Kiton claimed these hours. It's an overview of Kiton and used as training material at Neiman Marcus. I have also heard this from people at Kiton in operations.

If you look at the production line videos, it seems evident that every stage in the production process is heavily hand tailored. If you look at these steps, you simply see things your photos cannot capture.

I can't imagine how you don't get a tremendous number of hours with these filmed steps of manufacture.

 

[Manton]

Originally Posted by johnapril

****, AF. If you have the cash and the time (you may not have the latter, so I then understand the choice to go with Keyton), go to a little place recommended by Andrew or Matt or, heaven forbid, Anton, and have something handmade for you. See if that suits you. Let go of all this Keyton e-chat. Watch it float off to Page 2...3...4...

What did I say?

 

[a tailor]

Originally Posted by iammatt

Alex, any opinion on the opened up examples? It would be nice to have the opinion of A Tailor ;-).
i m h o
on a quality garment i like to see certain parts by hand and others by machine.
on long seams ,straight ones even the shoulder and armhole, i dont think hand sewn is better. i have not seen a hand sewer that can match the precision of a machine that is in good adjustment. on a long seam one stitch may be a bit longer or shorter or snugger or looser. the human hand can do just so much.
a collar on a high price garment should be entirely by hand also the buttonholes as well as all the edges and the finishing.
the main seams on pockets should be by machine then hand turned and finished by hand sewing.
the canvas pad sewn by machine is stiff and flat. but if the canvas darts are by machine and the chest construction and lapel are hand padded, you get a supple coat front.
hand sewing and machine sewing have their place.

 

[Artisan Fan]

Thanks for that Alex. Good information in a sea of innuendo.

 

[Film Noir Buff]

Originally Posted by Cantabrigian

"If a Kabbaz shirt can be a mostly machine made product in some ways and still perform well (and if handwork is as important in shirts as in suits) is handwork over-rated?"


Not necessarily but it does illustrate the difficulty in turning the clothes business into a neatly stacked pile. Sometimes handwork is worthless if the design is poor, or the fabric is poor, or the fitting is poor.

In some respects, shirts and suits may suffer from an absence of feedback. Take cars. If you've ever bought the same car a few years later, you might notice that certain features you didn't like have been corrected. Perhaps consumer feedback played a part. But it's easier for a driver to tell a car company what he wants altered in a car than in a suit. In some ways it makes sense because a car is a status object that is transferrable whereas a suit is a more immediate extension of the self which renders complaints or issues much more subjective.

 

[spectre]

slander = spoken word. libel = written word.

If I said this thread is all a lot of hot air and much ado about nothing that might be libel, as it's written.