Ideal arch support in bespoke shoes

[Coldfire3k3]

Ideally, for bespoke shoes should the arch support on the insole perfectly follow and fill the arch of your feet along the whole length of the arch? Should you be able to feel the arch support firmly press against the entire length of your arch while you walk?

 

[breakaway01]

Not a shoemaker or podiatrist but I have custom insoles for ski boots. Most people’s arches are not static unless their feet are very rigid. The arch will flatten to some extent with weighing. So with regards to your question, should the shoe/insole follow the contour of the weighted or the unweighted foot? If the arch support follows the unweighted foot then you may find that there is too much pressure on the arch when the foot is weighted. I think there is no single correct answer. It depends on your own foot characteristics and probably also on your shoemaker’s opinions on the subject. Curious to hear what @DWFII and @Nick V. and @ntempleman think.

 

[DWFII]

Curious to hear what @DWFII...think.

My own take on this is that 'built-in' arch supports don't offer much in the way of, esp. long term, support. Even after-market arch supports are suspect.

Doctor prescribed, and supplied, arch-supports are a different matter.

The normal, healthy foot (and that can include feet that tend to pronate a little or have low arches) doesn't need an arch support. The skeletal arch supports itself...to the degree it will.

Human beings, as a species, did not evolve needing arch supports.

In a shoe, if the arch support is not semi rigid, it will collapse as the shoe is worn. In the same way, if a foot wants to pronate, nothing short of an orthotic (or other palliative measures) can prevent it from 'walking over' the medial side of a shoe.

If the foot needs an arch support...I mean really needs one...a built in arch support will not do much to support the arch. If the foot doesn't really...really...need an arch support, it is mechanically and functionally unnecessary. Probably won't do any harm but probably won't benefit much either.

Besides if the foot doesn't need an arch support why would anyone want one?

IMO...

 

[Alan Bee]

My own take on this is that 'built-in' arch supports don't offer much in the way of, esp. long term, support. Even after-market arch supports are suspect.

Doctor prescribed, and supplied, arch-supports are a different matter.

The normal, healthy foot (and that can include feet that tend to pronate a little or have low arches) doesn't need an arch support. The skeletal arch supports itself...to the degree it will.

Human beings, as a species, did not evolve needing arch supports.

In a shoe, if the arch support is not semi rigid, it will collapse as the shoe is worn. In the same way, if a foot wants to pronate, nothing short of an orthotic (or other palliative measures) can prevent it from 'walking over' the medial side of a shoe.

If the foot needs an arch support...I mean really needs one...a built in arch support will not do much to support the arch. If the foot doesn't really...really...need an arch support, it is mechanically and functionally unnecessary. Probably won't do any harm but probably won't benefit much either.

Besides if the foot doesn't need an arch support why would anyone want one?

IMO...

@DWFII

I have flat feet and after many years of frustration with dress shoes and with age foot pain, I went for medically prescribed orthotics from a podiatrist. My RTW shoes now fit much better (but not perfect). Most of my knee pain is gone too.

I recently had some shoes made by St. Crispins on a highly customized last. St. C are known for their very firm arches (inner side wall). I reckoned, this would hold my foot up and keep it from, as you say, 'walking over the medial side of the shoe'.

I had the 1st pair (black whole-cut) made as a regular shoe and it fits like a drum, almost magical. The only problem is it is so fitted I cant even wear it with an orthotic. I would have liked a pelotte under the foot to lift the mid-arch up a little.

For the second pair, I asked for an orthotic to be built into the shoe. I send them a copy of my orthotics to mirror. This also meant the shoe had to be slightly wider in the forefoot and higher in the instep. Somehow, they forgot to build in the "pelote" and "side arch". At the moment, the shoe fits perfectly with my medical orthotics. But without them, you can feel the extra space in the front of shoes and instep causing slight heel movement.

The company has offered to take the shoes back and build in the side arch and pellotte as originally intended. However, I am of two minds. One mind says "leave well enough alone" and the other says "send it back". Now reading your response above, I am perplexed by your (expert) opinion that inbuilt orthotics hardly make any difference.

Here are some pics. Would really appreciate your opinion.

Alan Bee

 

[Alan Bee]

Orthotics herewith ...

 

[DWFII]

@Alan Bee

I am not a doctor, I'm just a shoemaker and someone who knows a bit (relatively a lot, actually) about leather. My opinion is that a leather arch support will not hold up over time. It's like trying to support a house on the side of a storm eroded cliff with a couple of 2x4's toe-nailed into the side of the cliff.

As I said above, a real arch support...a "prescribed orthotic from a podiatrist"... is, as you indicated, the only effective solution.

Having said all that, I have flat feet as well. I have had them all my life. I am 73 years old. I have never worn shoes with arch supports. I have been told by podiatrists that I pronate. Yet, for all of that, I do not experience any significant problems with my back or knees or my gait. Despite the diagnosis, I don't strike or wear out my heels and outsoles any differently than someone without flat feet.

But like so many people I wondered about it. And talked to a number of foot specialists...even took a seminar with a podiatrist.

In that particular class, the podiatrist made a statement that has stuck with me--"if you don't have any trouble walking and you don't have any pain, your foot is normal."

FWIW, people with 'pathologically' flat feet have real trouble 'toeing off' and tend to shuffle rather than walk normally.

 

[Coldfire3k3]

@DWFII do the shoes and boots you make have a relatively flat insole or do you still give them some shape at the arch?

 

[DWFII]

Normal configuration in the arch area. Nothing extraordinary done to address my 'flat' feet.

 

[Fraussie]

Apologies for highjacking the thread - I have flat feet too and relate to the OP's issues.

My feet pronate inwards and as a result my dress shoes tend to collapse in the medial side. This is particular apparent on a pair of suede chelseas I bought because they are a bit roomy and the suede is a softer leather. Are you saying that as long I don't have any pain that's ok and that aftermarket arch support is not necessary?

 

[DWFII]

With all due respect, I think if you read my posts above a second time you may come away with a bit more insight.

As the podiatrist I quoted above said if you don't have any pain and you're not experiencing any gait problems, your foot is normal. Meaning it falls within the normal range of possible foot configurations. Whether that is OK or not, is not something I can address. Over many decades, my pronating, flat arch feet have not gotten significantly worse and I've never worn either an aftermarket arch support or an orthotic.

But then as a maker I don't have to, and wouldn't ever, settle for a pair of shoes that were too large or structurally unsound.

Whether you want to add an arch support or not is entirely up to you. On one hand "what harm could it do?" On the other hand, maybe you're obsessing about something that is more or less normal and expected.

Like folks who put steel plates on their shoes...leather soles wear out, most frequently at the toe, esp. if the shoes aren't fit or built correctly. That's just a known fact. But aside from the marginally reduced traction at 'push-off, the damage to G'ma's wooden floor, and the ungodly racket created when walking on hard surfaces, what does it hurt? If it makes you feel better go for it. I've always said that a large part of fit...if maybe not the objective, emperical part...is in the head.

 

[Alan Bee]

Apologies for highjacking the thread - I have flat feet too and relate to the OP's issues.

My feet pronate inwards and as a result my dress shoes tend to collapse in the medial side. This is particular apparent on a pair of suede chelseas I bought because they are a bit roomy and the suede is a softer leather. Are you saying that as long I don't have any pain that's ok and that aftermarket arch support is not necessary?

@Fraussie
@DWFII
I am also a pronator and suffered for years. I now have all my shoes made with inbuilt arch support by St. Crispins. They were also to mimicking my medical orthotics to a significant degree.

My medical orthotics work for boots and deep shoes but with dress shoes, they cause heel slip because the heel height in RTW shoes is too short to accommodate the thickness of the orthotics. With inbuilt arch and a pellotte, your heels stay put and flush. This eliminates the heel slip while correcting the pronation in your arch and mid foot.

It makes a world of difference ...

Alan Bee

 

[DWFII]

@Alan Bee,

I don't see an arch support...for your long arch...in the shoes posted. With a 'built-in' arch support we would expect a major shape deviation in the medial insole such that the insole would extend half way up the medial side of the shoe interior. Even a foam rubber or neoprene arch support would need to extend up the side of the shoe to be really effective. Of course, photos can be deceiving--I might be missing something.

But your shoes still show evidence of a strong walk-over on the medial side AKA pronation--an indication that whatever was done is not entirely effective.

That said, I do see a metatarsal arch support. But that wouldn't have anything to do with, nor affect, the pronation problem.

What part of the heel do you wear out first?

 

[Alan Bee]

@Alan Bee,

I don't see an arch support...for your long arch...in the shoes shoe posted. With a 'built-in' arch support we would expect a major shape deviation in the medial insole such that the insole would extend half way up the medial side of the shoe interior. Nor do I see any significant lessening of your pronation. Of course, photos can be deceiving--I might be missing something.

But your shoes still show evidence of a strong walk-over on the medial side AKA pronation.

That said, I do see a metatarsal arch support. But that wouldn't have anything to do with, nor affect, the pronation problem.

What part of the heel do you wear out first?

@DWFII

Naturally, my heel wear out on the inside since I'm pronating inward. Indeed, they haven't included the long arch because that is a secondary symptom (and would take up more space0. I consulted with my podiatrist and he says my primary problem is the medial support right under the mid foot which causes the instep of my shoes to "collapse". With the inbuilt pellotte, my foot is raised slightly which takes the pressure off the arch and keeps it from rolling over and inward.

They aren't 100% perfect but this is as good as I can ask for. Believe me I've tried everything and short of going for full-on medical clod-hoppers which will be so large they wont work as dress shoes, this to me is a fair compromise

Alan

 

[Phileas Fogg]

Ideally, for bespoke shoes should the arch support on the insole perfectly follow and fill the arch of your feet along the whole length of the arch? Should you be able to feel the arch support firmly press against the entire length of your arch while you walk?

Essentially, no. Your foot is made to pronate. A shoe with an arch that is firmly pressed against the arch in weight bearing will eventually lead to foot and ankle problems.
Even if you need an orthotic, it should be one that is extrinsic to the shoe. Even orthotics have some give to them depending on whether they are corrective to accommodative.
So a shoe without a mechanism to allow for some pronation would not be a very comfortable shoe.

 

[DWFII]

Essentially, no. Your foot is made to pronate.
So a shoe without a mechanism to allow for some pronation would not be a very comfortable shoe.

I don't know what your credentials are...I'm asking...but with 50 years of studying feet, making and fitting shoes, I don't see the logic for this assertion--it runs counter to basic foot mechanics.

At heel strike (the first point of contact in a normal gait) the shoe hits the lateral corner of the heel. Weight is then transferred along the lateral side (and the lateral long arch) to the lateral ball joint and the fifth metatarsal. At which point, the weight of the body rotates (?) revolves (?) medially across the metatarsal arch to the first metatarsal and thence to push-off...which, in a normal foot involves the first phalange (big toe). After which the foot is no longer in contact with the ground.

The medial long arch exist to prevent the weight of the body collapsing the foot to the medial side before the metatarsal and phalanges can be engaged. People who pronate severely have a hard time walking simply because the foot is already collapsed long before the weight of the foot reaches the toes--forefoot and push-off.

As I said in a previous post I am a shoemaker, not a doctor. If you are or have other privileged knowledge, I would welcome a clear rationale for your statement.