humane and conscious eating

[foodguy]

i've spent a LONG time covering issues of agriculture and food. some of my best friends are organic farmers. some of them aren't. one thing that frequently gets lost in these conversations is the fact that "organic" has changed from being a philosophy to being a marketing standard. as a marketing standard, it is a tool that is used to sell more products or to sell products at a higher price. this is not to say that organic is bad -- it has introduced many concepts that have been adopted by mainstream agriculture. it's just to point out that the organic industry has a vested interest in painting non-organics as poisonous and evil. this has become scripture for many people who are interested in where food comes from (but for one reason or another have rarely visited a nonorganic farm).
rather than black and white, the organic-"industrial" spectrum is painted in shades of gray. some of the biggest farmers in california are organic, and you commonly see organic practices such as integrated pest management incorporated in non-organic farming.
it turns out the ag question is more complicated than we initially thought as well. there are chemicals that have been approved for use by organic farmers (some of them chemically identical to other products that have been forbidden, but that's another whole train). But these chemicals tend to be less effective (and less targeted) than some modern chemical equivalents. As a result, they need to be applied far more often and in greater concentrations. Fully 25% of all of the chemical pesticides used in California last year were one organically approved variety -- copper sulfate.
there are other issues too: even with something as toxic as methyl bromide (it's used to fumigate houses). But until the introduction of prophylactic methyl bromide inoculation of fields, it was impossible for strawberry farmers to own their own land, because planting strawberries on the same ground two years in a row was impossible.
this has been more scattershot than i would have liked, but the bottom line is: good flavor only comes from careful farming. careful farming practices do not include excessive use of dangerous chemicals (or fertilizers, or water, for that matter). you can tell a lot about how something was grown by how it tastes.

 

[b1os]

@foodguy
That's what I said! Totally agree with it.

 

[dtmt]

 

[indesertum]

i had a long ass reply to bios, but i said *******. i dont think we're getting anywhere. i do think that in the general populace ppl too often read bad reporting and take it as scientific truth. while aspertame has toxic byproducts, vast majority of people consume aspartame on levels no where near for those toxic byproducts to cause damage. too often media will take studies on how rats get brain tumors from massive overdose of aspartame and then claim "aspartame causes brain cancer" because face it, who would want to publish a story saying "rats got brain tumors from massive overdose of aspartame"?

Originally Posted by foodguy

i've spent a LONG time covering issues of agriculture and food. some of my best friends are organic farmers. some of them aren't. one thing that frequently gets lost in these conversations is the fact that "organic" has changed from being a philosophy to being a marketing standard. as a marketing standard, it is a tool that is used to sell more products or to sell products at a higher price. this is not to say that organic is bad -- it has introduced many concepts that have been adopted by mainstream agriculture. it's just to point out that the organic industry has a vested interest in painting non-organics as poisonous and evil. this has become scripture for many people who are interested in where food comes from (but for one reason or another have rarely visited a nonorganic farm). rather than black and white, the organic-"industrial" spectrum is painted in shades of gray. some of the biggest farmers in california are organic, and you commonly see organic practices such as integrated pest management incorporated in non-organic farming. it turns out the ag question is more complicated than we initially thought as well. there are chemicals that have been approved for use by organic farmers (some of them chemically identical to other products that have been forbidden, but that's another whole train). But these chemicals tend to be less effective (and less targeted) than some modern chemical equivalents. As a result, they need to be applied far more often and in greater concentrations. Fully 25% of all of the chemical pesticides used in California last year were one organically approved variety -- copper sulfate. there are other issues too: even with something as toxic as methyl bromide (it's used to fumigate houses). But until the introduction of prophylactic methyl bromide inoculation of fields, it was impossible for strawberry farmers to own their own land, because planting strawberries on the same ground two years in a row was impossible. this has been more scattershot than i would have liked, but the bottom line is: good flavor only comes from careful farming. careful farming practices do not include excessive use of dangerous chemicals (or fertilizers, or water, for that matter). you can tell a lot about how something was grown by how it tastes.
i would love to read some more about these practices. could you recommend some reading?

 

[Nosu3]

Originally Posted by indesertum

this might turn out to be the dumbest thread i made besides the louis vuitton one, but this has been weighing on my thoughts.



a friend sent me this youtube video

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Food to Fridge was great, wasn't it? One of the better videos out there as far as narration and organization go

Originally Posted by indesertum

I strongly disagree that industrialization or food chemicals and additives are unhealthy as there's little proof that they are. However the addition of such products simply means to me that the product is of lower quality.

No. There's plenty of evidence that shows harmful effects of artificial chemicals and additives, but go ahead and keep consuming it.

Originally Posted by indesertum

also i personally feel that you can eat farmed seafood without guilt over animal suffering as lobsters and fish and the like simply do not have the cerebral cortex to process computations about pain. in other words they have no metaphysical understanding of pain (ie when they feel pain they dont think "hey this is painful").

anyways this is all a moot point for me as the fact is that I simply can't afford the higher quality and more humane produce whether at wegmans or the farmer's market. I need protein to live and being a student to get the amount of food I need on the budget I have I simply can't afford to pay 10 dollars for 2 free range chicken breasts. for the same amount i could get 8 breasts of chickens that had their beaks cut off, grown in cramped spaces, clubbed to death, etc.



Wild-caught seafood is preferred for environmental and health reasons.

I purchased 5 free-range locally farmed chicken breast cutlets from Whole Foods for only $6.

Originally Posted by indesertum

also on the issue of organic branding. organic really has nothing to do with humane treatment or environmentally conscious. it just specifies what fertilizers a farmer can use. so i personally think it's a huge scam and purposefully avoid things that say organic. i also feel that they are not of any appreciable higher quality.

Completely false. Did you learn this from a Monsanto website?

Originally Posted by indesertum

what do you guys do? do you just buy whatever and not think about it? if you can afford it what kind of produce do you buy? do you produce without thinking where it came from? if you're conscious about it do you buy simply anything that's labelled organic or do you actually go to a farmer's market and buy from a trusted vendor where you've seen how they produce their produce?

I recently switched from occasionally using organic to organic only. The health consequences of using conventional makes organic worth the price. I've driven by conventional farmer's market during chemical spraying and the amount used is frightening.

 

[Nosu3]

Originally Posted by xander_horst

Wow, could only get through about 1 and a half minutes of that video. I have some similar concerns, so I've been eating less meat by replacing it some of my meals, like garbanzo beans instead of tuna fish into mock-tuna salad sandwiches. Wish I could pull the plug completely, but find it difficult. If you wish to further concern yourself, read Eating Animals by Jonathan Safran Foer. Then rejuvenate by watching these pigs take it eeeaaasy:
That's great that you are interested in making a positive impact and are considerate of the welfare of animals. Veganism isn't the only option, you know. Consider an animal's cognitive ability when deciding what your diet will consist of; though humans and insects are both animals one is regarded much differently than the other. If you don't want to do without meat, try limiting it to just free-range locally farmed chicken. Their cognitive ability is relatively low, they provide food without death (eggs) and it can be incorporated into almost any meat dish. Interesting you posted the pig video. Many times people are not aware that pigs are cognitively and emotionally superior or equivalent to dogs, yet pigs still remain acceptable by some to abuse, slaughter and eat. The pain and suffering pigs have to endure while having their heads stomped and skulls crushed by cinder blocks in factory farms is not worth it, no more than if it were a dog. Of course I say this with the assumption you have high standards for dog or cat welfare. Personally, I don't use seafood for the possibility of dolphins or whales being killed or injured in the process. It just does not sit well with me to know an individual could die or be trapped in a net just for my tuna sandwich. Also health reasons as I wouldn't really consume anything from the ocean which has been made into a toxic wasteland by humans. Activism is very important too. It isn't just about what groceries you buy. Right now we have highly intelligent and sentient beings being chained and lugged around the US to perform tricks for profit. These elephants are beaten regularly, which is how they convince them to perform.

Originally Posted by indesertum

lol
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I didn't watch this whole video so I'm not sure if the guy was joking but I'd like to clarify the following... Other animals aside from humans can be people, there is already a significant indication that dolphins and elephants are people. Of course they are a different culture and have bizarre mannerisms compared to us, but that does not disregard them as being a community of people; it's just a lack of understanding by humans since our communications are so different. Their absence of hands and arms altered their path of cognitive evolution since they have limited abilities to manipulate their environment. It's naive to think that humans can be the only animal species capable of being people just because humans dominate the Earth and other animals are viewed as inferior.

 

[Dragon]

Originally Posted by Nosu3

Other animals aside from humans can be people, there is already a significant indication that dolphins and elephants are people. Of course they are a different culture and have bizarre mannerisms compared to us, but that does not disregard them as being a community of people; it's just a lack of understanding by humans since our communications are so different. Their absence of hands and arms altered their path of cognitive evolution since they have limited abilities to manipulate their environment. It's naive to think that humans can be the only animal species capable of being people just because humans dominate the Earth and other animals are viewed as inferior.

What you are saying is probably true, but can be said for all living things. All living things have their own bizarre mannerisms, community, communications, and so forth. In my view, we should respect that and appreciate the life we take for food.

 

[itsstillmatt]

Can I be an elephant? Or a horse? I've always wanted to be hung like a horse.

 

[gomestar]

why not an ass?

 

[itsstillmatt]

Originally Posted by gomestar

why not an ass?
I want change, not the status quo.

 

[erdawe]

Originally Posted by Nosu3

..

Just curious, do you consider the proposition for improved treatment for the other people (as you put it) to be a moral appeal or an emotional appeal to us humans?

 

[erdawe]

Originally Posted by iammatt

Can I be an elephant? Or a horse? I've always wanted to be hung like a horse.

Wouldn't an elephant be hung higher even though they lack that nifty human expression?

 

[binge]

The science...it has come.

 

[itsstillmatt]

Originally Posted by erdawe

Wouldn't an elephant be hung higher even though they lack that nifty human expression?
Perhaps, but being hung like an elephant is kind of hard to explain. I mean, what do you even say to people in that case?

 

[binge]

Just let them know that you're a honey badger and you don't give a....