How Airlines/Aviation Works

[globetrotter]

Originally Posted by Violinist

Does anyone know what El Al does to make it so "safe" besides having flight crew members who have probably killed people in the west bank?

first, I find the tone of the question offensive.

but I can anser that -

1. the quality of the people involved in security is much better than you will find anywhere else. most of the people involved in the security of el al are between the army and their "Real" careers, most are students. you will find a lot of lawyers, doctors, and people in high tech who spent 3-5 years involved in airport and el al security. the training is long and extensive, and the selection process to choose them is very rigorous.

2. the basis of the security isn't about controling the articles that get onboard, like it is in most of the world, it is on understanding the passengers. you have very well trained interviewers who are looking for people who don't fit in right, or have something wrong about them. several years ago, a palestinian man in london got a girl pregnant and tried to send her on an el al plane with a bomb in her suitcase. in her interview they found that she didn't know very much about her travel plans, even though she was traveling alone. her boyfriend had told her that she would be picked up at the airport by his family, and that he would be flying on a later flight, but that she should tell the airporint security people she was staying at a hotel. anyway, the interviewer found her suspicous, and when they searched her bag they found a bomb made by the syrian security forces that looked like a calculator. an x-ray wouldn't have cought it.

3. some flights have armed guards on board, who look like passengers. they are very very good.

4. JB - flights landing at ben Gurion airport have a police vehicle escort them in to the airport, but you have that in a lot of airports, actually.

 

[JetBlast]

+1 Globetrotter. I doubt the question was meant as offensive, El Al really does have one of the best security programs I've ever seen.

I've also witnessed the police escort in both LAX, JFK, Frankfurt and Zurich. Kind of neat to see, especially in FRA where the car used was an armored SWAT tank thing.

JB

 

[Violinist]

Originally Posted by globetrotter

first, I find the tone of the question offensive.

but I can anser that -

1. the quality of the people involved in security is much better than you will find anywhere else. most of the people involved in the security of el al are between the army and their "Real" careers, most are students. you will find a lot of lawyers, doctors, and people in high tech who spent 3-5 years involved in airport and el al security. the training is long and extensive, and the selection process to choose them is very rigorous.

2. the basis of the security isn't about controling the articles that get onboard, like it is in most of the world, it is on understanding the passengers. you have very well trained interviewers who are looking for people who don't fit in right, or have something wrong about them. several years ago, a palestinian man in london got a girl pregnant and tried to send her on an el al plane with a bomb in her suitcase. in her interview they found that she didn't know very much about her travel plans, even though she was traveling alone. her boyfriend had told her that she would be picked up at the airport by his family, and that he would be flying on a later flight, but that she should tell the airporint security people she was staying at a hotel. anyway, the interviewer found her suspicous, and when they searched her bag they found a bomb made by the syrian security forces that looked like a calculator. an x-ray wouldn't have cought it.

3. some flights have armed guards on board, who look like passengers. they are very very good.

4. JB - flights landing at ben Gurion airport have a police vehicle escort them in to the airport, but you have that in a lot of airports, actually.

Get over it it was a joke.

 

[zippyh]

Originally Posted by globetrotter

3. some flights have armed guards on board, who look like passengers. they are very very good.

You know this is true about US flights too.
Look for the guy in 2B with the cop moustache (i.e. Federal Air Marshall).

 

[SoCal2NYC]

My boyfriend got through security in less than 5 minutes at JFK and he had no government issued ID.

 

[JetBlast]

Got this in my airport email today-

JB

 

[maxnharry]

Originally Posted by lee_44106

Someone please explain to me why most, if not all, US air carriers are close to bankruptcy, while airlines like Singapore can do well?

Higher airfare? No union problems? lower overhead?

Our airlines have gotten themselves into infrastructure/union problems (much like our automakers) and don't see an easy way out for themselves.

Newer carriers like Southwest have focused on profitable routes/underserved airports while our legacy carriers have huge hub and spoke systems that don't make alot of money. The legacies also take federal subsidies to service small airports (Hooterville Intl) that couldn't sustain profitable air service on their own.

Increased competition, higher fuel costs and large fixed costs are making the legacies hemorrhage cash, they then take it out on their employees who take it out on us, cause us to fly less or use the upstarts, thus accelerating their death spirals.

Instead of diving for the basement, I would suggest the legacies shed fixed costs, start raising prices and realize that a new day is dawning in aviation.

 

[globetrotter]

Originally Posted by lee_44106

Someone please explain to me why most, if not all, US air carriers are close to bankruptcy, while airlines like Singapore can do well?

Higher airfare? No union problems? lower overhead?

jetblast explained it well - the attitude of "if you don't like the piss poor way we do things, then screw you". US based airlines are full of lazy people who give poor service and think that they are worth a lot more money than they are. they can't compete with airlines that can hire nice, atractive people who like to work for a fair wage.

 

[Saucemaster]

I've had so many bad airline experiences, but my favorite so far is still: board at Philly, flying alone on a weekday, no holiday in sight. Plane delayed for an hour and a half. Why? Who knows, they weren't telling us. After the cattle-herding process that is boarding, we have a relatively smooth flight. Except that after we land, we sit outside the gate for another half hour. Why? Who knows, they weren't telling us. So obviously I missed my connecting flight. I was sent to three different ticket counters trying to get a ticket on the next available flight, including one at which I waited for ten minutes while I could hear the attendant having a clearly personal phone conversation in the room behind the counter because the door was open, all the while ignoring me smacking the little "ring for service" bell on the counter (it was late by this time). I eventually get on a flight after arguing with four different people because they wanted to make me stay overnight and take a flight out in the morning, but they weren't about to spring for a hotel. I get to LA in the wee hours of the morning, and discover they've lost my bags. I stay in LA for about a week. I call LAX every single day of that week; they still haven't found my bags. The day before I leave to return to Philly, they finally call me and tell me they've found them. They've been sitting at LAX the whole time, apparently. They tell me they've scheduled the bags for delivery the next morning. I manage to convince them to hold the bags at the airport so that I can pick them up the next day, otherwise they'll be delivered to my parents' house while I am flying back to Philly. They initially tell me this is impossible, that the bags are in a pile somewhere of bags that need to be delivered. I say some very not-nice things and convince them to go get the damn bags out of the pile so that I can pick it up tomorrow. I go to the airport the next day, pick up my bags, immediately check them in, get on the plane... which is delayed for an hour. Why? Who knows, they weren't telling us. After another "let's sit for 45 minutes on the runway" ordeal once we land, I miss my connecting flight back to Philly. I sit in the airport for 2.5 hours waiting for the next flight they put me on. I arrive in the wee hours of the morning to discover that THEY LOST MY BAGS AGAIN. Long story short, after I harass the airlines for a while, they finally deliver my bags to my door 11 days after I return to Philadelphia. Apparently I was being taught two very important lessons: make sure your connecting flights are always at least, I dunno, 2.5 hours apart, just in case you have to sit inside the airplane for an extra two hours for reasons that the flight crew is intent on keeping mysterious to the passengers; and NEVER, EVER, EVER check baggage. Good to know. But JetBlast is right. I shouldn't expect any better. If I don't like having to fight for the right to get where I'm going in a less than 24 hour time span and being separated from my luggage for almost three weeks, I shouldn't be flying!

 

[Duveen]

Sauce,

Definitely sorry to hear about your experience. The one thing that I will add to your post is: never check bags unless absolutely necessary. I can travel for up to 10 days on carry on luggage through careful packing, and struggle mightily not to check.

I disobeyed this cardinal rule on a trip from DC to Grand Rapids, MI. I had a confirmed ticket on a direct flight, but was bumped and no one would volunteer seats. There was another flight to GR that went through Detroit. I was one of the last on board (being a standby because of the bump), so I voluntarily gate-checked my rollaboard b/c I was sure that there would be no overhead bin space and I didn't want to be 'that guy' who makes them stick the luggage in the closet and delays the plane. I was leery to trust them, but figured it would be OK as the physical equipment did not change and I would just stay on the plane. Big mistake.

We arrived in GR at 1:40am (delays) and I found that while the bags were tagged to GR and all they had to do was leave my bags on the plane, they chose to unload them in DTW.

I was wearing my suit, thank god, but needed to get socks, a white dress shirt, tie and make copies of my presentations (fortunately I was carrying one copy with me to review) before 8am. The nice lady told me about Meijer's and a nearby Kinko's and I was, amazingly, able to get all the clothing I needed and my copies done and was to bed by 2:30am. Only in America could I find a full panoply of basic goods at that hour.

Like Sauce, I had issues with them trying to get my luggage to GR and send it to my hotel when I needed to have them leave it at the airport so that I could pick it up on my way out.

While this lacks some bite because it all did work out by the end, it taught me to ditch the rollaboard for a softsided piece of luggage that I felt sure that I could always cram into an overhead.

 

[SoCal2NYC]

I'm happy I booked an early flight to NYC from SF this morning (11:30am) since as we were getting ready to board the latest was that flights scheduled for 1:30pm were pushed back to 4:30pm and the 3:30pm flights were cancelled.

 

[LabelKing]

The Business Class "lounge" at Shanghai's new Pudong Airport is disgusting; it quite literally looked like a Greyhound waiting area in a large metropolitan city.

There was one tiny bathroom, which as far as Chinese bathrooms go, was fairly clean. The entire place was too small for the amount of passengers, and looked like a slightly seedy, downmarket waiting room for a discotheque.

Of course, the whole Pudong Airport isn't exactly a design wonder; there's only one underground set of bathrooms for the International terminals, located next to an extremely small smokers' lounge, which is ironic given that this is China; and the fact that the cheap smoked-glass doors made the smokers' lounge look like a brothel. The parking garage resembles an old factory. The elevators make odd sounds and were likely left unfinished as the floor is already peeling.

In fact, the details--or lack thereof--are so Communist, that you can forgive them for not actually having a huge red star on the facade, which would have been a nice bombastic detail.

 

[lawyerdad]

Originally Posted by Duveen

While this lacks some bite because it all did work out by the end, it taught me to ditch the rollaboard for a softsided piece of luggage that I felt sure that I could always cram into an overhead.

I agree this is the prudent approach, although it also has pitfalls. Sometimes when I'm traveling for business and staying longer than one night, I need to bring more stuff (clothes, laptop, papers, etc.) than can easily fit in one bag that is clearly within the sometimes-enforced, sometimes-ignored size restrictions for carry-ons. Thus, the dilemna. Option 1: Cram everything into one bag and risk having them tell you it's too big if it's a full-flight, which will result in all of your stuff getting checked. Option 2: Distribute it among two bags (one being something like an overstuffed laptop case) and hope they'll agree that they constitute one carry-on and one "personal item".

Once I was cutting it close time-wise trying to catch a flight out of LAX. I was carrying a briefcase and a laptop bag. I was waiting in a security line. There was a line for steerage and another for first class. One of the two security folks walked the lines and gave a "first class people here, everyone else over there" instruction. People shuffled around to comply. Five minutes later a different security person came out and said, "What the hell are all you people doing standing there? You all need to go to the back of this other line [i.e., behind a couple dozen people who had arrived in the interim]. I made the mistake of opening my big mouth and saying (very civilly) "You know, those people are standing exactly where your colleague told them to stand. They've been waiting patiently, and it's not really fair to make them start over again."

He turned to me and said, "I'm the one who gets to decide what's fair and not fair. ("I'm the decider!")" He paused, glared at me, then smiled and said, "And by the way, you can't go through here until you check that suitcase? [Pointing at my briefcase.] I said, "Why? It's my carry-on? I always carry this on." He pointed at my laptop case and said "No, that's your carry-on. You only get one. You need to go back to the ticket counter [where the line was about 45 people long] and check that." Deciding that arguing the point with him would be stupid, I pointed out that my flight was leaving in about 30 minutes and asked if I could just gate-check it. Nope. He had his little modicum of power and was going to use it to the fullest.

Fortunately, rather than going to the ticket counter I hurried over to another security line and explained to one of the security officers that I was running late for my flight. She nicely hurried me through security (and, in response to my question, said my briefcase and laptop bag were fine to carry on). As I walked to the gate, I passed by the other side of the original security checkpoint. I at least had the sense to resist the momentary urge to call out and get the guy's attention and say "Nice try, asshole, I'd like to stop and tell you how I got here but I have a flight to catch."

 

[Violinist]

Originally Posted by lawyerdad

I agree this is the prudent approach, although it also has pitfalls. Sometimes when I'm traveling for business and staying longer than one night, I need to bring more stuff (clothes, laptop, papers, etc.) than can easily fit in one bag that is clearly within the sometimes-enforced, sometimes-ignored size restrictions for carry-ons. Thus, the dilemna. Option 1: Cram everything into one bag and risk having them tell you it's too big if it's a full-flight, which will result in all of your stuff getting checked. Option 2: Distribute it among two bags (one being something like an overstuffed laptop case) and hope they'll agree that they constitute one carry-on and one "personal item".

Once I was cutting it close time-wise trying to catch a flight out of LAX. I was carrying a briefcase and a laptop bag. I was waiting in a security line. There was a line for steerage and another for first class. One of the two security folks walked the lines and gave a "first class people here, everyone else over there" instruction. People shuffled around to comply. Five minutes later a different security person came out and said, "What the hell are all you people doing standing there? You all need to go to the back of this other line [i.e., behind a couple dozen people who had arrived in the interim]. I made the mistake of opening my big mouth and saying (very civilly) "You know, those people are standing exactly where your colleague told them to stand. They've been waiting patiently, and it's not really fair to make them start over again."

He turned to me and said, "I'm the one who gets to decide what's fair and not fair. ("I'm the decider!")" He paused, glared at me, then smiled and said, "And by the way, you can't go through here until you check that suitcase? [Pointing at my briefcase.] I said, "Why? It's my carry-on? I always carry this on." He pointed at my laptop case and said "No, that's your carry-on. You only get one. You need to go back to the ticket counter [where the line was about 45 people long] and check that." Deciding that arguing the point with him would be stupid, I pointed out that my flight was leaving in about 30 minutes and asked if I could just gate-check it. Nope. He had his little modicum of power and was going to use it to the fullest.

Fortunately, rather than going to the ticket counter I hurried over to another security line and explained to one of the security officers that I was running late for my flight. She nicely hurried me through security (and, in response to my question, said my briefcase and laptop bag were fine to carry on). As I walked to the gate, I passed by the other side of the original security checkpoint. I at least had the sense to resist the momentary urge to call out and get the guy's attention and say "Nice try, asshole, I'd like to stop and tell you how I got here but I have a flight to catch."

There's almost nothing in the entire world that makes me more angry than the sort of equalization that happens with police and airport security people, and some receptionists. No where else in society do you have to shut up and comply with the whims of some easily replaceable moron on a power trip.

 

[kwilkinson]

Originally Posted by Violinist

It makes me wish for the days when the serving class were to be seen and not heard, but whatever.