How Airlines/Aviation Works

[JetBlast]

In light of some recent questions and thoughts about the airline industry in the Things That Are Pissing You Off thread, I thought I would write up a little blurb for you guys so you could see what we do on the airline side to keep things moving as smoothly as possible.

First of all, I'll start off by saying that I work in the industry and plan to stick with it as a career. I work in information logistics between Baltimore, Dulles, and Reagan Airports in the DC area. I was also involved in an internship program with British Airways. I am usually at an airport on a daily basis actively participating in operations, so I can try and give a real-world perspective of the reality of how things work from when you step out of your car at the departure airport to when you leave the airport at your destination.

To start off I'll just say that things have changed dramatically in the last ten years. The events of 9/11/01 were the number one catalyst, with airport and airline security going to levels even the FAA wouldn't have foreseen. Personally I understand why the security is in place, but it's still a pain for those of us who deal with it every day in a work setting (and not to mention, the passengers). We always hear about how nice things were before 9/11 from the travelers themselves, and believe me, the employees that were working here before 9/11 look back and remember too. Everybody misses it. Our industry is a much more difficult place to work since then. In the end, the changes have been made and our job is to follow the guidelines, whether we like and agree with them or not.

I'm going to address some concerns and issues I saw in the Things That Are Pissing You Off thread. Globetrotter's Mexicana adventure is a perfect example of the problems faced by today's traveler. He didn't seem to like Mexico City airport, and I really can't comment on it having never been there as well as only working in American airports. The elevator he tried to use at MEX was broken, but can you honestly expect everything to work at a place that is used by a lot of people, 24/7? It's possible that the maintenance people didn't even know the elevator was broken in the first place, or they did know and just didn't have it fixed yet.

As far as GT was discussing how Mexicana split his family up into different seats, I can definitely understand the frustration especially with small children, but think of it from a practical standpoint. Now, I'm not sure if Globetrotter reserved his seats in advance (if he did, see Lawyerdad's thing below), but let's just say for example he didn't reserve any particular seats. In a situation where the airplane is almost or completely full, what do you want us to do? The options would be to either take the seats we give you that are apart, or we can reconfigure the airplane by moving all the passengers, making sure you get the seats you want, and moving all the passengers back in again and finding new seats for them. This would disrupt our operations, use staff that could be used somewhere else, and, in the end, there's usually a chance that the same passenger we moved everyone for will ***** that we delayed the flight (nothing toward Globetrotter, but I have actually seen this happen several times).

He also stated that he pushed a steward out of the way - this is unacceptable, especially on an American airline. We don't care who you are or how important it is that you get through first or whatever, but if you touch any crew member in a threatening or abusive manner on any flight I happen to be assisting on, I can guarantee you will be booted off the airplane on the spot and almost always detained by security. There is no excuse for doing something like that and it's never tolerated on any US airline. Some of you may remember I was kicked in the knee by a disgruntled passenger a little while back, and I had the option to press criminal charges if I wanted to, along with her losing access to the airline she was on and both Washington airports. Either way I'm not sure how they do things in Mexico specifically, but I still think it's pretty heinous that someone would even consider laying their hands on an airline employee in that manner. If you decide to yell and scream at us we're not taking that either; you might as well walk on down to the TSA office, because that's where you're heading. Most of us try to do what we can to help you out, but there is a limit to what we can and can't do. Most of these things are regulated by the higher-ups at headquarters who have never worked a plane in their life, and we are left to simply do what they say. Yelling at us or otherwise bitching at us for something we have no control of will not help at all. Please do not assault the staff.

Now Lawyerdad's American Airlines story is a bit different. Apparently the computer system canceled out his reserved seats along with several other people's. It's possible that passengers on the flight canceled in advance and the seats were re-assigned for weight and balance purposes (most airlines have an entire department devoted just to this duty). Since the staff were "utterly unhelpful dicks" about it, it probably would have been a good idea to ask for a supervisor, or at least just ask the staff why the seats were moved around.

There was also the hour-long security line, which shouldn't be much of a surprise to anyone. As for being paged through the airport and not being able to find the desk, that honestly doesn't make much sense and as stated before, white courtesy phones would probably be a nice idea (but I don't work in Maui, so my opinion is nil).

As for the computer not assigning an LAX-based first officer, there can be a number of reasons why this occurred. If he was specifically told by AA staff that the F/O was not Los Angeles-based, I really don't have an answer other than that it could have been a computer error; I'm not familiar with American's system. If not, it's also possible the F/O had exceeded his allowed flight time (pilots are only allowed to fly a set number of hours before taking a mandatory rest period to prevent fatigue, etc).

Piobaire had the idea later of an "upscale experience", which has been tried before and failed such as in the case of MaxJet Airways, which went down the tubes a few days ago-
http://www.aviation.com/business/071...ankruptcy.html
MaxJet attempted pretty much everything that was said later about an airline operating on an entirely different economic model. The fact is, there simply isn't enough of a market for such a product. Not enough people flew MaxJet (I watched airplanes with literally 10 or 15 passengers on it leave Dulles on a number of occasions) and eventually the airline's costs outweighed the profits. This was also a major factor in why Concorde is no longer in service. In the end, it all comes down to the fact that airlines are businesses and are out to make a profit and stay alive.

Piobaire also has another good idea later in the thread - having someone to essentially do all the work for you. This work not work very well at all in the USA specifically, mostly because of the financial states of all of the airlines here. Many are struggling to hang on at this point and such an expense simply wouldn't be worth it. Just as an example of an airline that has had great success in the present day, go try out Singapore Airlines (probably the best overall airline I've ever flown) and a lot of the things mentioned were taken care of for me.

Hopefully this has cleared up some curiosities some people may have. We keep in mind that our jobs ride on the passengers, because they are the lifeblood of the industry. There is always someone trying to make your flight the best one possible. Personally, I work in the industry because I love it and love seeing people get where they need to go and it makes me disappointed when people do not get there or understand why we do something a certain way and get pissed at us for it. Many of the decisions aren't made by us but by the folks in the cushy offices at headquarters.

If anyone has any other questions feel free to ask or PM me, I'll try and answer it.

JB

 

[Nick M]

Originally Posted by JetBlast

If anyone has any other questions feel free to ask or PM me, I'll try and answer it.

So... what is the deal with airline peanuts?

 

[JetBlast]

It's catering...not my department

JB

 

[hermes]

i find the best well to deal with an airline snafu is to smile, be polite and speak calmly when asking for it to be corrected - you'll get better results that way

and what's the real reason behind british airways cancelling the detroit to heathrow flight starting in march 2008?

 

[globetrotter]

Originally Posted by JetBlast

In light of some recent questions and thoughts about the airline industry in the Things That Are Pissing You Off thread, I thought I would write up a little blurb for you guys so you could see what we do on the airline side to keep things moving as smoothly as possible.

First of all, I'll start off by saying that I work in the industry and plan to stick with it as a career. I work in information logistics between Baltimore, Dulles, and Reagan Airports in the DC area. I was also involved in an internship program with British Airways. I am usually at an airport on a daily basis actively participating in operations, so I can try and give a real-world perspective of the reality of how things work from when you step out of your car at the departure airport to when you leave the airport at your destination.

To start off I'll just say that things have changed dramatically in the last ten years. The events of 9/11/01 were the number one catalyst, with airport and airline security going to levels even the FAA wouldn't have foreseen. Personally I understand why the security is in place, but it's still a pain for those of us who deal with it every day in a work setting (and not to mention, the passengers). We always hear about how nice things were before 9/11 from the travelers themselves, and believe me, the employees that were working here before 9/11 look back and remember too. Everybody misses it. Our industry is a much more difficult place to work since then. In the end, the changes have been made and our job is to follow the guidelines, whether we like and agree with them or not.

I'm going to address some concerns and issues I saw in the Things That Are Pissing You Off thread. Globetrotter's Mexicana adventure is a perfect example of the problems faced by today's traveler. He didn't seem to like Mexico City airport, and I really can't comment on it having never been there as well as only working in American airports. The elevator he tried to use at MEX was broken, but can you honestly expect everything to work at a place that is used by a lot of people, 24/7? It's possible that the maintenance people didn't even know the elevator was broken in the first place, or they did know and just didn't have it fixed yet.

As far as GT was discussing how Mexicana split his family up into different seats, I can definitely understand the frustration especially with small children, but think of it from a practical standpoint. Now, I'm not sure if Globetrotter reserved his seats in advance (if he did, see Lawyerdad's thing below), but let's just say for example he didn't reserve any particular seats. In a situation where the airplane is almost or completely full, what do you want us to do? The options would be to either take the seats we give you that are apart, or we can reconfigure the airplane by moving all the passengers, making sure you get the seats you want, and moving all the passengers back in again and finding new seats for them. This would disrupt our operations, use staff that could be used somewhere else, and, in the end, there's usually a chance that the same passenger we moved everyone for will ***** that we delayed the flight (nothing toward Globetrotter, but I have actually seen this happen several times).

He also stated that he pushed a steward out of the way - this is unacceptable, especially on an American airline. We don't care who you are or how important it is that you get through first or whatever, but if you touch any crew member in a threatening or abusive manner on any flight I happen to be assisting on, I can guarantee you will be booted off the airplane on the spot and almost always detained by security. There is no excuse for doing something like that and it's never tolerated on any US airline. Some of you may remember I was kicked in the knee by a disgruntled passenger a little while back, and I had the option to press criminal charges if I wanted to, along with her losing access to the airline she was on and both Washington airports. Either way I'm not sure how they do things in Mexico specifically, but I still think it's pretty heinous that someone would even consider laying their hands on an airline employee in that manner. If you decide to yell and scream at us we're not taking that either; you might as well walk on down to the TSA office, because that's where you're heading. Most of us try to do what we can to help you out, but there is a limit to what we can and can't do. Most of these things are regulated by the higher-ups at headquarters who have never worked a plane in their life, and we are left to simply do what they say. Yelling at us or otherwise bitching at us for something we have no control of will not help at all. Please do not assault the staff.

Now Lawyerdad's American Airlines story is a bit different. Apparently the computer system canceled out his reserved seats along with several other people's. It's possible that passengers on the flight canceled in advance and the seats were re-assigned for weight and balance purposes (most airlines have an entire department devoted just to this duty). Since the staff were "utterly unhelpful dicks" about it, it probably would have been a good idea to ask for a supervisor, or at least just ask the staff why the seats were moved around.

There was also the hour-long security line, which shouldn't be much of a surprise to anyone. As for being paged through the airport and not being able to find the desk, that honestly doesn't make much sense and as stated before, white courtesy phones would probably be a nice idea (but I don't work in Maui, so my opinion is nil).

As for the computer not assigning an LAX-based first officer, there can be a number of reasons why this occurred. If he was specifically told by AA staff that the F/O was not Los Angeles-based, I really don't have an answer other than that it could have been a computer error; I'm not familiar with American's system. If not, it's also possible the F/O had exceeded his allowed flight time (pilots are only allowed to fly a set number of hours before taking a mandatory rest period to prevent fatigue, etc).

Piobaire had the idea later of an "upscale experience", which has been tried before and failed such as in the case of MaxJet Airways, which went down the tubes a few days ago-
http://www.aviation.com/business/071...ankruptcy.html
MaxJet attempted pretty much everything that was said later about an airline operating on an entirely different economic model. The fact is, there simply isn't enough of a market for such a product. Not enough people flew MaxJet (I watched airplanes with literally 10 or 15 passengers on it leave Dulles on a number of occasions) and eventually the airline's costs outweighed the profits. This was also a major factor in why Concorde is no longer in service. In the end, it all comes down to the fact that airlines are businesses and are out to make a profit and stay alive.

Piobaire also has another good idea later in the thread - having someone to essentially do all the work for you. This work not work very well at all in the USA specifically, mostly because of the financial states of all of the airlines here. Many are struggling to hang on at this point and such an expense simply wouldn't be worth it. Just as an example of an airline that has had great success in the present day, go try out Singapore Airlines (probably the best overall airline I've ever flown) and a lot of the things mentioned were taken care of for me.

Hopefully this has cleared up some curiosities some people may have. We keep in mind that our jobs ride on the passengers, because they are the lifeblood of the industry. There is always someone trying to make your flight the best one possible. Personally, I work in the industry because I love it and love seeing people get where they need to go and it makes me disappointed when people do not get there or understand why we do something a certain way and get pissed at us for it. Many of the decisions aren't made by us but by the folks in the cushy offices at headquarters.

If anyone has any other questions feel free to ask or PM me, I'll try and answer it.

JB


no offense meant, JB, but this is why most businesses don't employ teenagers in positions that don't involve a fryng machine.............


look, I understand that it is difficult to run an airline - I would suggest that any company/nation that finds it difficult should outsource to dubai, thailand or singapore - I think that it would be a great idea to have people who are effitient and nice run all the worlds airlines, and those people who find it difficult/complicated could get into another field.

an airport/airline has hundreds of thousands of opportunities per day to interact with customers. the standard for mistakes per opportunities for the electronics industry is 1 mistake in 250,000 opportunities - and that is an acceptable level, in my opinion. the airline industry looses 2% of bags, for instance, and on some flights (like the one I was on) maybe 25 % of the people sitted were seperated from their family and unhappy about it.

do I expect everything to work in an airport? frankly, yes - or, if it is broken, somebody should be running around trying to fix it in all possible haste. and, in the case of something like an elevator, if it is broken than an alternative route should be set up until the elevator is fixed, or porters should be stationed to help people up and down the stairs until the elevator is fixed.

in the hotel industry, it is common for hotel executives to sleep from 50 to 200 nights a year in hotel rooms, to understand the whole expereince from the point of view of the customer. I wonder how many airline exectutives ever ride as passengers on an airplane, or go through an airport like a passenger to see if the signs are clear, if the paths make sense, etc? I can tell you that the vast majority of airline employees carry on more luggage than they allow the passangers, and they do it in an obvious way - which makes it pretty clear they don't give a **** about the passengers.

and lets talk about american stews, shall we? it seems that american airlines go out to old folks homes and pick the meanest nastiest old women to work on their airplanes, women who can hardly stand up by themsevles and so are reluctant to walk down the aisle to give you a drink, women so mean that snakes run away in terror.


look, JB, I understand that you are a little cog in a large machine, and that you are still young enough and idealistic enough to try to find excuses for your machine, but frankly none of what you said is acceptable.


1. yes, security isn't the fault of the airlines or the airports - but if they worked together to find a better way of doing it, it could be both safer and more comfortable. frankly, I fault the fact that we want it on the cheap, good security isn't cheap. but, look at what happened to me - I have no problem with security, and I understand the guildelines probrably better than you do. what pissed me off was that after going through security, about 5 minutes before the flight boarded, they threw up folding tables and checked us one more time in the jetway- now, the check was pretty worthless, anyway - but because we thought we were done with security we went out and bought drinks, which should have been ok, but because of the way they did the checks, it wasn't. it would have been pretty easy to have set up security in a more logical manner.

but not so specific - airlines could ask to give "politness training" to TSA personel, and or give small bonuses to TSA personel who are spotted acting with dignity and politly, for instance. it is in the airlines interest to make the TSA people better at human interface.

2. look, any 11th grader with excel could have planned out the seating of the plane better than they did. more importantly, they could have told me at 11 am (4 hours before the fligth, when I checked in ) that there was a problem with my reservation (I did, in fact, ask for specific seats) and allow me to try to deal with it. they told me that due to an equipment change, all the seats were reassigned and that I would have to deal with it at the gate - and then they didn't open the gate until 10 minutes before the scheduled departure.

but serously - you are locking a few hundred people in a tin tube for 4 hours, you need to have some sort of peace in place - seperating families is extremly bad policy, and frankly, if an airline can't handle a simple computer program, then why should I belive that they should be able to remember airplane maintanance?


3. yes, I shouldn't have pushed the steward, but he also shouldn't have stood in my way. this is one of the most annoying things that stews do - a few weeks ago I was on the upper deck business class and a stew was standing in the way of our exit, because she forgot (I guess) that half the business class was on the upper deck. but in this case, it is hard enough going against the flow of passengers getting on a plane, to block me and make it harder was just plain stupid. more importantly, ****, you see two adults trying to get 3 infants on a plane, help them, don't jsut stand there looking old and stupid. and don't even get me started on airlines that don't use pre-boarding, which would have solved this problem.

so, in short, JB, if you don't like getting bitched to, find another field you want to work in. I think that americans should get out of the airline business and let people who want to do it well do it.

 

[gdl203]

GT - the whole post is pretty funny but this part is classic:

Originally Posted by globetrotter

and lets talk about american stews, shall we? it seems that american airlines go out to old folks homes and pick the meanest nastiest old women to work on their airplanes, women who can hardly stand up by themsevles and so are reluctant to walk down the aisle to give you a drink, women so mean that snakes run away in terror.

 

[globetrotter]

Originally Posted by gdl203

GT - the whole post is pretty funny but this part is classic:

thank you

 

[kwilkinson]

Originally Posted by globetrotter

thank you

Not only a funny post, but an extremely correct one that needed to be posted.

 

[JetBlast]

I wonder how many airline exectutives ever ride as passengers on an airplane

I have seen several executives from a few different airlines (Delta was one) who fly economy class on a regular basis.

so, in short, JB, if you don't like getting bitched to, find another field you want to work in.

I don't mind getting bitched at, I deal with scabs on a daily basis. If you don't like how we do things, find another way to get there, simple as that. There is no pleasing everybody.

Although I can agree with the AA flight attendant statement

JB

 

[globetrotter]

Originally Posted by JetBlast

If you don't like how we do things, find another way to get there, simple as that. There is no pleasing everybody.


JB

but, see, that isn't a problem - I was flying with my family, so I chose to fly with Mexicana, to save money. normally, I won't fly with an American carrier (and, sorry, to clarify, I didn't mean AA specifcally, I meant US based flight crews) I fly to europe on LH, usually, and to asia on Sing or Korean. and I choose my airports by how well they work, if I can.

but your statment is just like the people in the car industry used to say "well, if you don't like american made cars, you can walk". no, if you don't like american cars, then you can buy japanese cars, and then the nice people of flint michigan can cry to Michael More about how tough their lives are.

 

[JetBlast]

In all honesty I do the same thing in terms of trying to find a non-US airline to fly, but for me I just like experiencing different airplane types, different in-flight service, etc.

JB

 

[Piobaire]

I just posted in the pissing off thread, then saw this one.

JB, I think flying has been Wal-mart'ed. IMO, that is the biggest problem. When an experience, in this case flying, becomes a commodity, everyone suffers. Yes, the airlines are in business to make money, I think many of us either run, own, or are high up in business here, many of us with MBAs, economics, and finance degrees. I dare say, some of us understand this better than you. However, when an industry decides to have a race to the bottom, that industry becomes doomed to being Wal-mart'ed. An entire industry that decides to price war and make flying like a cattle car is going to continue to a) lose money and b) piss off many consumers with descretionary income that would allow them to pay for better experiences.

Yes, a MaxJet is going to have problems if they do not target market and execute just right. It would be like trying to start a bespoke clothing store from scratch when an entire marketplace is used to only crappy jeans from Wal-mart. I submit, that 99%, we have a market that is oriented to Wal-Mart jeans.

 

[JBZ]

I don't fly as much as I used to (which was never really that much), but I think the major thing which drives people crazy with airlines and airports is the lack of communication when things go wrong or become inconvenient.

For example, I was flying back from Ireland a few years ago. We made good time and landed about 30 minutes prior to our scheduled time. We then had to sit in the plane for said 30 minutes before we were allowed to exit.

I imagine what happened is that we landed so early, the plane ahead of us was still using the gate designated for us. I say "imagine" because no one, neither a pilot or a flight attendant, took 30 seconds to get on the intercom and say something like, "we're sorry for the delay, but we landed so early, we don't have access to our gate yet. Once we're given access, we'll get you off the plane as soon as we can."

Would this have made the wait any shorter? Of course not. However, everyone would have probably been in a better mood about it after a 6 hour flight. I know I would have.

 

[Dakota rube]

JB, I pray your "like it or lump it" comment is born out of your youth. That attitude, like Zach pointed out, is Step One in the path to ruin.

I've not flown regularly since I left the plastics industry, but whenever I had "issues" while flying, I found the best way to get resolution was to find an airline CS rep, make eye contact, smile and calmly lay out not only the problem, but also a solution.

 

[EnglishGent]

I think that this is a perfect term for what has happened to the airline industry "Wal-mart'ed" and unfortunately it's is happening in many industries. There was a time when you couldn't buy poorly constructed OTR suits you had to have MTM or bespoke, now it's easier to mass produce cheap Menswearhouse quality. Just two examples of big corporations trying to make as much money as possible and forgetting about quality. There was a time that most people couldn't afford to fly and those that could expected excellent service, now so many people fly and the majority don't expect the same service so the airlines see no need to provide it.

As a side note, the airlines blame so many problems on 9/11, yet this should only affect securtiy. There is no justification for bad manners, poor service and all the other problems that airlines have, which are so often conviniently lumped in as caused by 9/11.