Help with collar style...

[acole]

I received my first Jantzen shirt a while ago, and I was hoping to get some opinions here before ordering more. Â I took the best photos I could get in my mirror; sorry they're not sharper. The shirt is much nicer than the pictures reveal--I included JT's swatch below to give an idea. Â Some other details you can't see are mitered french cuffs and a split yoke. OK, so I already know I'm a right scary-looking dude who desperately needs a shave

-- what I'm after is suggestions on the collar.  Right for my face?  Correct height? It's a regular spread--JT's #4 or #5 if memory serves, with standard height and 2.75" length.  I'm trying to decide if I need a bigger collar, and whether to stick with the spread, widen it more, or chuck it and go back to point collars. The cuff length is another concern.  I recently had all my suits and sportcoats altered in the sleeves, and I'm not sure I like the results.  With this shirt the cuff seems to lie flush with the jacket sleeves; I'd like to have 1/2" linen showing since I'm tall.  I'm not sure if the jacket is too long or the shirt too short. I'd welcome any other comments on the shirt styling, too. thanks, Adam C.

 

[BjornH]

Hi acole .

I think this collar looks good on you, judging from the pictures. I tried this collar myself but I found it too small and limp for me. If you are willing to take the time to experiment you can try to order the next shirt with the P15 english semispread collar. It's much more substantial and could easily look better on you as you seem to be tall. As for the collar's height, it's quite ok but it could perhaps look too low when/if the beard goes. The P15 is a bit higher but not by much.

The jacket seems to be right so you could add at least an inch to the sleeves as they are already on the short side and will only get shorter during next washings.

B

 

[esvoboda]

I would say definitely go for a larger collar. I also believe that Flusser would say you should choose more of a point collar given the shape of your face.

-Ed

 

[gregory]

Hi. Personally I would remain in the 2 3/4" to 3 1/8" range for collar points. I have Jantzen shirts with 3 1/8" which look okay and those with 3 1/2" which look like the wings of a plane resting on my shoulders (I believe this is the fashionable Italian look). Last night, I ordered five shirts with 2 7/8" collars, which I think would be what I want. As for the degree of spread, I mentioned this earlier, but according to guide books I should be probably getting a regular spread collar or even narrow spread, but I hate the look of a regular spread or narrow spread so much that I exclusively order wide spread or extra wide spread (cutaway) collars. I wear my shirts with the collars unbuttoned most of the time, and the wide spread/cutaway ones just make me look more dashing ....

Can someone comment on how some collars curve out and others curve in? By this I mean the crescent shape of Jantzen collars? By contrast, it seems like T&A and H&K have straight, non-curving collars.

 

[acole]

2 technical questions in connection with this cuff length business: 1. Where precisely should the cuff stop? Â If I look at the inside of my wrist, there's a crease where the wrist joint bends and the skin changes abruptly to "palm" skin (which is thicker with "fingerprint" whorls -- they're not just on your fingertips.). Â This seems intuitively to be the right spot. Â Below is a picture of a shirt that falls to this level (or maybe 1/8" beyond) when secured. Â With a long enough sleeve, the endpoint becomes mostly a function of cuff circumference. Â I'm not sure if the better approach is to nail the sleeve length exactly (tough to get right with shrinkage), or to shoot for extra length and dial down the wrist size to keep the cuff from sliding down too far (more problems with dirt from rubbing on heel of hand). 2. Â Arms (OK, mine at least) don't hang straight down when fully relaxed. With some of the jackets I got back from the tailor (the house guy at Stanford Nordstroms), the endline of the jacket cuff is parallel to the floor while that of my shirt cuffs is not. Â Should I have expected the tailor to angle the jacket sleeve ends to match, so that there would be an even stripe of shirt cuff showing?

 

[rayk]

As you are undoubtedly aware, the collar must be in proportion with the head, if balance is to be achieved.  Your general facial shape is rather rounder than long, so I would suggest that a straight point collar would be most indicated.  You are a pretty big guy, and could easily increase collar point length to 3" to 3.5", although a 2.75" point doesn't look bad.

From your photos it would appear that your jacket sleeves are the correct length, so you might consider increasing the length of your shirt sleeves by a half inch or so.

To achieve a correct shirt sleeve length, I measure from the center of the collar at the rear of the neck, down the arm to the first joint of the outstretched thumb.  This measurement has always served me well: half inch of linen at the cuffs, and adequate  sleeve material to allow me to lift my arms without the sleeves hiking up into the jacket.  

Shirt makers that I've spoken with will allow about 3% for shrinkage, but I've never factored this into my shirt purchases and I've not had problems.  If you've had a lot of problems with shrinkage, you might consider self-laundering: most dry cleaners are evil.

 

[matadorpoeta]

the collar looks good on you, except that it seems a little tight. is it comfortable? i'd say try 3" collar points if you must, but there's no need to go beyond that. your jacket sleeves look to be a good length, and no, there is no need to angle them. it looks like your right arm is longer than your left (where your ring is) so make sure you give jantzen different measurements for each one. remember that you should be able to lift your hands to your face and still have the cuffs cover your wrist. i would say leave the cuffs alone but add some length to the sleeves. in the second picture, the shirt looks too baggy under the arm. did you cheat on your chest measurement? btw, you look like cristiano zanetti. he's a famous soccer player.

 

[FCS]

I'm no expert but the collar seems a bit disproportionate to your face. I don't know why Ricky put 2.75" as the collar length standard, may be it is in HK, but most North American shirtmakers seem to use 3" for their standard.

 

[gregory]

I think a 3" to 3 1/8" collar point would be great. As for degree of spread, I will leave it up to you. But I had the same problem that matadorpoeta pointed out (too much fabric bunching up in the underarm area when my hands are placed beside my body). I asked Jantzen to correct this for the order I placed last night. Your shirt sleeves are too shirt, and this is also a problem that I experienced my very first time ordering a Jantzen shirt. After receiving my first shirt, I actually asked them to add 1.75" to the sleeve length and reduce 0.25" of the cuff circumference. I was generally happy with the result.

 

[fareau]

Adam,

Sharp looking shirt, definitely money well spent. I might agree with rayk's discerning eye regarding some subtle modifications to future orders, but I still think the shirt looks good. And thanks for posting the pictures; it makes the forum more interesting when you see members sporting their goods.

 

[acole]

Lots of responses, for which I'm grateful...

I also believe that Flusser would say you should choose more of a point collar given the shape of your face.

it looks like your right arm is longer than your left (where your ring is) so make sure you give jantzen different measurements for each one.

Well, I'll be damned.  In 33 years, I never once thought of this.  I checked just now, and damned if my right arm isn't 7/8" longer.  I guess you learn something new every day. You have a sharp eye, matador.

in the second picture, the shirt looks too baggy under the arm. did you cheat on your chest measurement?

Cheat, as in too large a number?  No, I don't think so.  I'll recheck for my next order.  It seems I have to fix the problem with the bunching fabric somehow -- Gregory, how did you fix it?  Reducing the chest measurement, or repositioning the armholes higher?

btw, you look like cristiano zanetti. he's a famous soccer player.

You flatter me, sir.

Based on the feedback so far, what I'm inclined to do is lengthen the sleeves by at least 1" and account for the discrepancy (which would put the unbuttoned cuffs about where rayk suggested), stick with a very modest spread but with 3" or possibly 3 1/8" points (maybe P15), and try to address the bunching issue.

 

[gregory]

Gregory, how did you fix it?

I just told him there is slightly too much fabric in the underarm area and asked him to remove the excess fabric slightly and suggested that he may wish to consider higher armholes as a solution.

 

[gregory]

So does a collar that mirrors the face shape "balance", or does it "exaggerate"?  

I agree with you. One would think that someone with a roundish face wearing a narrow point collar would only make the roundness of his face all the more obvious....

 

[rayk]

Gentlemen, the principle of rounder countenances being paired with straight point shirt collars, and more elongated faces being combined with spread collars is quite logical.

Remember, the objective is an achievement of balance.  An elongated face over long straight collar points draws our attention along the accentuated line, and gives the impression of even greater length.  Consider John Kerry who often wears long straight point shirt collars.  This combination most definitely emphasises the lack of natural facial structural balance.  Were he to wear a well constructed spread collar of appropriate point length , the face/collar axis would be interrupted and the perception of excessive length would be softened.

The same concept applies to those with rounder facial shapes who would profit by use of straight point collars of appropriate size. The interruption of the perception of roundness by drawing attention from the face to the longer line of the straight point collar would provide balance by softening extremes.

The skillful use of compliments to both emphasize and de-emphasize line and thereby achieve balance that would be otherwise lacking is nothing new to natty dressers.  Men often use jacket button stance, gorge height, trouser cuff depth, shirt collar height, etc. to help achieve a balance not provided by nature.

None of this is to suggest that those who fail to follow these "rules" can't be adequately dressed, but I submit that they will fail to achieve the balance that could otherwise orient them toward being truly well dressed.  Let's face it, balance is the catalyst of elegance.