Feeling conflicted about shell cordovan

[Pezzaturra]

Originally Posted by pandamonium

My problem is with the chain between me buying shell and funding/keeping afloat the horse meat industry.


Have you ever ate hard Salami or hard Frankfurter sausage? Then you ate horse meet.


P.S. Anyone who tries to make this into **** joke will get crabs, so don't try it.

 

[laughwithm3]

i don't make moral considerations when making purchase... i make considerations of how much i like them and how much they cost.

 

[TheFoo]

Originally Posted by furo

They are different in the sense that culturally, they serve a different purpose ... i.e. ... much more of a recreational one than that of cows which are mainly for milk and meat.

Eh. I consider eating barbequed baby back ribs excellent recreation, but I don't feel bad for the pig they came from.

Originally Posted by furo

As others have stated, without the horse meat industry, I don't think they would be raised for the ass-hide used for shell

If true, that would just speak to the lack of demand for shell, not to whether it would be morally right or wrong to raise horses for it.

 

[furo]

Originally Posted by mafoofan

Eh. I consider eating barbequed baby back ribs excellent recreation, but I don't feel bad for the pig they came from.

You're not eating the pig while it's still alive though, so your recreation is limited to your own enjoyment, not the pig's

Originally Posted by mafoofan

If true, that would just speak to the lack of demand for shell, not to whether it would be morally right or wrong to raise horses for it.

Exactly. Morality aside, my point is that without the horsemeat industry, the demand for horse ass would be too low to sustain the raising of them for the purposes of shell alone.

 

[T4phage]

Originally Posted by pandamonium

Reposting since the original threat was deleted when the database went down:

Basically, I'm looking for boots in Alden's Barrie last and it seems that all the best designs are only available in shell. I grew up around horses and spent a lot of time interacting with them, which makes me feel a little conflicted about buying these shoes. I emailed Horween about the source of their material and they told me that their shell is a byproduct of the meat packaging industry in Canada and France, where they slaughter horses for meat.

Has anyone felt any conflict about buying shell? I'd like to know your opinions. This threat is probably just a way for me to justify buying shell in the end, but I'd like to know if there were any moral considerations that influenced your purchase.

EDIT: Just want to add that I'm not a vegan or believe that killing animals is wrong in all cases, but if you've spent time with both a cow and a horse, you know why I hesitate with shell and not cow leather.

you may make a good candidate for tuesday

 

[TheFoo]

Originally Posted by furo

You're not eating the pig while it's still alive though, so your recreation is limited to your own enjoyment, not the pig's.

Are you insinuating that horses enjoy being ridden and used for labor? I don't think they're having much fun, and I'm even more certain that we didn't start using horses because we thought they'd have fun that way.

Originally Posted by furo

Exactly. Morality aside, my point is that without the horsemeat industry, the demand for horse ass would be too low to sustain the raising of them for the purposes of shell alone.

How does this impact the moral question? The analysis only sheds light on what we want, not whether we should have it.

 

[Tarmac]

First of all, if you are uncomfortable with it, why buy it? Don't buy it.

Secondly, how do you justify riding horses around, penning them in fences, feeding them ****** food, kicking them to make them go faster, forcing them to mate is okay but using their ass isn't?

 

[furo]

Originally Posted by mafoofan

Are you insinuating that horses enjoy being ridden and used for labor? I don't think they're having much fun, and I'm even more certain that we didn't start using horses because we thought they'd have fun that way.

I can't speak for the horse but what's not enjoyable about being ridden? Are you insinuating it's not fun to be rode? I'd argue it's more enjoyable than being eaten alive in comparison to the pig case

Originally Posted by mafoofan

How does this impact the moral question? The analysis only sheds light on what we want, not whether we should have it.

It doesn't impact the moral question. Rather, it explains why the horse's ass is available to harvest. Without the horsemeat industry, I'd argue we wouldn't be having this discussion, making the moral question moot.

 

[TheFoo]

Originally Posted by furo

I can't speak for the horse but what's not enjoyable about being ridden? Are you insinuating it's not fun to be rode? I'd argue it's more enjoyable than being eaten alive in comparison to the pig case

Uhh hmm. How to answer . . .

We decided to breed and use horses because they are useful to us, not because we were trying to benefit them. If horses happen to enjoy being ridden--as, apparently, some humans do--that's neither here nor there.

Originally Posted by furo

It doesn't impact the moral question. Rather, it explains why the horse's ass is available to harvest. Without the horsemeat industry, I'd argue we wouldn't be having this discussion, making the moral question moot.

Sure, but so what? We are having this discussion because someone feels guilty about buying shell--because shell is available.

 

[furo]

Originally Posted by mafoofan

Uhh hmm. How to answer . . .

We decided to breed and use horses because they are useful to us, not because we were trying to benefit them. If horses happen to enjoy being ridden--as, apparently, some humans do--that's neither here nor there.

I don't think we breed dogs to benefit "the dog" but the animal still winds up being a companion to many, much like the horse bred for show or work. Another example is a sled dog. Bred for work, but plenty suitable for companionship, which may or may not benefit the dog. I'm neither canine nor equine, so I wouldn't know for sure.

On the other hand, as the OP pointed out, very few cows are bred with companionship in mind imo

Originally Posted by mafoofan

Sure, but so what?

So unless the OP has a problem with slaughtering a horse for the meat, there's really no point in taking offense to the additional use for shell imo.

 

[imatlas]

Originally Posted by Pezzaturra

Have you ever ate hard Salami or hard Frankfurter sausage? Then you ate horse meet.


It's illegal to sell horse meat for human consumption in California.

The other day my dad mentioned that he could never visit China, because they eat dogs there. I was like, "WTF? You'll eat chickens, ducks, turkeys, pigs (and we're Jewish), cows, buffalo, elk and deer but you have moral qualms with other people eating dogs?"

 

[furo]

Originally Posted by imatlas

It's illegal to sell horse meat for human consumption in California.

The other day my dad mentioned that he could never visit China, because they eat dogs there. I was like, "WTF? You'll eat chickens, ducks, turkeys, pigs (and we're Jewish), cows, buffalo, elk and deer but you have moral qualms with other people eating dogs?"

/agree

It's a cultural thing rather than a moral one imo, although the lines can be fuzzy

 

[Lovellum]

Must...not...make...gay joke...can't...go down that path...

 

[pandamonium]

Originally Posted by furo

/agree It's a cultural thing rather than a moral one imo, although the lines can be fuzzy
Of course it's cultural, but don't you think that the morality of killing a certain animal for harvest differs on the extent of its intelligence, awareness, and complexity? For example, I've been at a cow slaughter -- I was doing field work with a SE Asian family and the men purchased a small one for a community celebration. The animal was completely unaware: its eyes had no less life in them after the killing than before. Animal behavioral studies have drawn a pretty clear distinction between chickens, for example, and their ability to create social bonds and recognize death and dogs, dolphins, whales, horses, apes, etc. and their intellectual abilities. My moral conflict is in the death of a sentient being and not in killing animals in general.

 

[greekgeek]

Wear them, and think only of the good times.