Cars We Drive!

[Find Finn]

That explains this picture, scrolled past it earlier and though how do you ruin two white aventadors at the same time.

 

[HRoi]

Wow, that is the ultimate in driving dumbfuckery. You're looking right at an oncoming car and you just turn right into him?? It didn't even look like he slowed down before crushing the Lambo

 

[Cary Grant]



I would say upwards of 70% of normal cars in Europe are sold with manuals, as they are still more fuel efficient and cheaper.

I would choose a manual any day of the week, until we reach something like a 5 series or something with a big diesel.

I was generically referring to America - bit make no mistake- it is coming globally.

In the US it's less than 4% (there was a small spike last year- actually up to around 6%)

http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2012/08/03/stick-shift-autos-on-their-way-toward-extinction

 

[Cary Grant]

The 2014 F12 (all 731 horses of it) Video

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/exotic/1309_2014_ferrari_f12_berlinetta_exclusive_first_test/

 

[Find Finn]

If I was to buy a new Ferrari (had the money), I would get the F12, such a bad ass car.

I was generically referring to America - bit make no mistake- it is coming globally.

Maybe but I think we are talking 15-20 years here in Europe.

 

[TheFoo]

You guys are not recognizing a crucial distinction.

There are two potential reasons to prefer a stick shift: (1) economy, and (2) driving pleasure. To the extent manual transmissions remain more popular in Europe amongst lower end cars, it is largely due to interests in economy (either miles per gallon, cost of the transmission, or both). The telltale is that, amongst performance cars, manual transmissions are quickly disappearing--and much more quickly in Europe than America. A good dual-clutch automatic will shift much faster than any human being could possibly accomplish with a fully manual stick shift, so those interested in pure performance numbers will naturally prefer automated mauals. Witness makers like Porsche and Ferrari migrating away from stickshifts. Porsche's new GT3, to much racous disapproval State-side, does not have an available stick shift, even though it is the purest and most raw iteration of the 911. The new generation of supercars (P1, LaFerrari, 918, etc.) is completely bereft of manual transmissions.

Makers like BMW and Porsche have discussed many times that the only real pressure they face to keep manual transmissions in their top performance cars is to appease American enthusiasts. Europeans, apparently, just aren't that sentimental about it.

 

[UnFacconable]



Makers like BMW and Porsche have discussed many times that the only real pressure they face to keep manual transmissions in their top performance cars is to appease American enthusiasts. Europeans, apparently, just aren't that sentimental about it.

Probably because in Europe, clutch pedals are still associated with economy cars, whereas here they are associated with sports cars (and jeep wranglers, I guess).


I wonder how much more weight and complexity it would add to an automated manual to allow for pedal activation of the clutch and gear shifter for the cogs.

EDIT: While I'm here, sounds like the F12 has way too much engine. The fact that they'd compare a Ferrari V-12 to the F-type is damning. I bet it would be faster with 100 less HPs and 4 wheel-drive. Of course, it's entirely possible that production cars will have 100 less HP because we all know that Ferrari provides ringers for press evaluation. That said, would crush if I had an F12, but don't think that the awesomeness of the v12 is enough to offset the fact that the 458 appears to be a better drive. So, for anyone keeping score at home, the 458 stays atop my leaderboard for Ferraris I'd most like to own if I had more money and a garage that didn't require more ground clearance for a clean entrance than any Ferrari can muster.

 

[SomethingWitty]

You guys are not recognizing a crucial distinction.

There are two potential reasons to prefer a stick shift: (1) economy, and (2) driving pleasure. To the extent manual transmissions remain more popular in Europe amongst lower end cars, it is largely due to interests in economy (either miles per gallon, cost of the transmission, or both). The telltale is that, amongst performance cars, manual transmissions are quickly disappearing--and much more quickly in Europe than America. A good dual-clutch automatic will shift much faster than any human being could possibly accomplish with a fully manual stick shift, so those interested in pure performance numbers will naturally prefer automated mauals. Witness makers like Porsche and Ferrari migrating away from stickshifts. Porsche's new GT3, to much racous disapproval State-side, does not have an available stick shift, even though it is the purest and most raw iteration of the 911. The new generation of supercars (P1, LaFerrari, 918, etc.) is completely bereft of manual transmissions.

Makers like BMW and Porsche have discussed many times that the only real pressure they face to keep manual transmissions in their top performance cars is to appease American enthusiasts. Europeans, apparently, just aren't that sentimental about it.

The demise of the manual transmission in higher-end cars is mostly due to the (aging) demographics of those that order and buy them new.

For instance, Ferrari was only selling ~8% of F430s with manual transmissions and even less in the 599. The customers that matter to Ferrari - those that order new cars (year after year) - spoke with their wallets. Ferrari, seeing this, weighs the R&D cost of matting a manual transmission to their next car (458, F12, etc) and decides it isn't worth it. That little reality doesn't stop the keyboard warriors on car forums the world over from chastising Ferrari (and others) for "ignoring enthusiasts", while conveniently forgetting that they can't afford to buy the car when it's new anyways... And really, can you blame the manufacturers for overlooking them?

That's not to say that there aren't people out there that would buy a new GT3 with a 6-speed, but they've been significantly out-numbered for years...

In my experience, I'm not sure of a time that I miss a manual transmission in a car that it's not available in... The new supercars are designed to work as a system; engine, transmission, suspension, traction control, etc... All programmed to eek the most performance out of the car for even the most novice drivers. Frankly, the cars are too good, and there's too much going on for nearly anyone to extract more from the current crop of cars, through a manual (see Chris Harris' F12 review).

If I'm feeling nostalgic for rowing gears, it's much more satisfying to do so in a car from a period where it was truly the best choice.

 

[jet]

^you don't sound like a manual guy

 

[SomethingWitty]

^you don't sound like a manual guy

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you didn't mean to sound so smug, but just in case - you don't sound like someone who's actually driven any of the new(er) supercars... If you have, you'd probably agree that there's rarely a time and place for a manual transmission in todays supercars. If you don't agree with that, while that's your opinion, but you're clearly in the minority, because no one's ordering manual transmission when they're available.



I am a manual guy, but it depends on the circumstances, the car, the time, the place, etc...

Sunday morning drive - hop in an old 911 and roll the windows down.

Going to the track when I want to compare lap times with friends, when (we think) seconds count - a 458 with paddles, please.

I'm fine with admitting that I'm far from a pro race driver, but even the drivers I know that are far better than I, will admit that the new cars are 'too much' for a manual transmission. This exact topic seemed to be the car guy topic of choice over the summer around here. The guys I know with the means can afford to have it both ways - 'analog' and 'digital', new and old, fast and faster. Funny enough, there seems to be more interest than I can remember in the more analog cars. Guys that used to always have the latest and greatest aren't always chomping at the bit like they used to and often adding something from a couple generations back to their garage, rather than the new toy on the block. Performance is hitting the 'usable' ceiling, and it's already well past what most people can reasonably handle... whether they care to even try or not.

 

[David23]

That explains this picture, scrolled past it earlier and though how do you ruin two white aventadors at the same time.

The way Lamborghini designed it to work, rear section is bolted onto the carbon fiber tub. In that bad of an accident the tub is meant to separate from the rest (split in half by design). Talk about brilliant engineering to protect the occupants. F1 technology.

 

[jet]

I'm a manual guy but...only on the weekends.

lol

 

[Rumpelstiltskin]

I'm a manual guy but...only on the weekends.

lol

I'm a 3 pedal guy too and have no problems doing it during the week

 

[Find Finn]



 
The way Lamborghini designed it to work, rear section is bolted onto the carbon fiber tub. In that bad of an accident the tub is meant to separate from the rest (split in half by design). Talk about brilliant engineering to protect the occupants. F1 technology.  

Did you read my post?

I'm well aware that its how it's designed and where it hails from, that wasn't really in question.

 

[Cary Grant]

Foo- the "economy" issue used to be true but is now largely myth. Edmunds and others have written on it of late. Two reasons: in the US at least most don't drive them economically. They rev high, thrash, or just shift at the wrong time. And today, the new automatics are smaller, lighter and more economical than ever before. With joe average behind the wheel, the chances are better than ever that the auto trans might be better.

You guys are not recognizing a crucial distinction.

There are two potential reasons to prefer a stick shift: (1) economy, and (2) driving pleasure. To the extent manual transmissions remain more popular in Europe amongst lower end cars, it is largely due to interests in economy (either miles per gallon, cost of the transmission, or both). The telltale is that, amongst performance cars, manual transmissions are quickly disappearing--and much more quickly in Europe than America. A good dual-clutch automatic will shift much faster than any human being could possibly accomplish with a fully manual stick shift, so those interested in pure performance numbers will naturally prefer automated mauals. Witness makers like Porsche and Ferrari migrating away from stickshifts. Porsche's new GT3, to much racous disapproval State-side, does not have an available stick shift, even though it is the purest and most raw iteration of the 911. The new generation of supercars (P1, LaFerrari, 918, etc.) is completely bereft of manual transmissions.

Makers like BMW and Porsche have discussed many times that the only real pressure they face to keep manual transmissions in their top performance cars is to appease American enthusiasts. Europeans, apparently, just aren't that sentimental about it.