can you tell by this pic if it is goodyear or hand welted?

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by mfais, Aug 12, 2012.

  1. n-domino

    n-domino Senior member

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    I handled the shoe and didn't know what to think of it. I believe it had a triple sole.

    It's all relative. I guess it depends on whether the price is justified in your opinion.

    I stopped by the John Lobb boutique and their bespoke service started at $7,800 [​IMG].
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2012
  2. fritzl

    fritzl Senior member

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    sure, i admit. imo, it is not. no worries. triple sole makes five bucks of the overall costs. go figure.
     
  3. sklim8

    sklim8 Member

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    WOW!! Thank you for your very detailed answers. I looked through the videos included by Mox C as well as looked up some other "hand welted" videos and now understand what you are saying. I obviously don't have the appreciation of the implications (other than based on your very insightful explanations), but do appreciate what hand welted shoes do vs. GYW shoes. Thank you again for the insight.

     
  4. sklim8

    sklim8 Member

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    Hi Reidrothchild,

    Thank you for your perspective, and I think your explanation put my mind somewhat at ease. DFWII is likely striving for perfection at a higher end that is likely out of my reach right now, and indeed my GYW shoes do feel sturdier and more comfortable than my previously purchased shoes with flimsy uppers and broken rubber souls (or it may be my mind telling me it better feel more comfortable...).

    I am sure (and would hope) that a $2,000 hand welted bespoke shoes would be even more comfortable than what I wear now, but at least I am happy with what I am currently wearing, and have something to aspire to if/when I have the means.

    Cheers!

    WOW!! Thank you for your very detailed answers. I looked through the videos included by Mox C as well as looked up some other "hand welted" videos and now understand what you are saying. I obviously don't have the appreciation of the implications (other than based on your very insightful explanations), but do appreciate what hand welted shoes do vs. GYW shoes. Thank you again for the insight.

     
  5. ncdobson

    ncdobson Senior member

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    This is a fantastic encapsulation of the relevant information that makes the distinctions very clear. Thanks.
     
  6. hendrix

    hendrix Ill-proportioned

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    No, what he's saying is that, once you get up to the point of using welted construction and full grain leather (e.g. Loake 1880, AE etc), what's the point in all the other "expenses" (subjectively nicer leather, subjectively better finishing, closed channels...anything else?) of >$500 machine made shoes? the shoe is still made the same way. The reasons for buying such shoes lies in aesthetic preference and brand cache- there is little "quality" differential here. DWFII, being a craftsman himself, is particularly interested in quality, therefore shoes made to the same quality selling for 5x the price make no sense to him.

    Myself, being interested in the art of shoemaking, interested in value for money, and interested in supporting businesses that maintain high standards, am inclined to agree with his line of thought.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2012
  7. reidrothchild

    reidrothchild Senior member

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    I must've misread his post then. I read that small portion of his his post as equating $100 shoes with $500 shoes. You can't find either full grain leather or GoodYear welting for $100, so those are objectively low quality shoes. You'd have to step up to $200 to even get Meermin's lowest line/made (partially) in China shoes. And my response was more to the guy who expressed concern over the quality of his GYW shoes after reading DFWII's post. I don't disagree with his line (or yours) of thought.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2012
  8. hendrix

    hendrix Ill-proportioned

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    ^Ah, I didn't read that properly.

    I should probably let DW speak for himself.
     
  9. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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    I'm sorry, but I don't believe that's true. Many shoes in the $50.00 price range are full grain leather. It may not be calf skin but technically speaking a lot of the supposedly premium leather used in higher priced shoes is not calf either but closer to veal. All "full grain" means is that the hair side of the hide is still attached and hasn't been scoured or replaced with a bonded, synthetic layer.

    As for the Goodyear construction, I've seen shoes with plastic welt made using Goodyear construction.

    I don't want to be a cipher but I have to say that Hendrix pretty much gets it. I was startled at how cogently he described it, as a matter of fact.

    The bottom line is that I'm not against $100.00-$500.00 shoes. There's a place for everything...obviously--the demand indicates it.

    But as I said, I don't see the difference that commands the higher price. I don't see how shoes costing $1000.00 can be said to be worth that much more than the $500.00 shoe. Again, the construction techniques are virtually identical. So...all else being equal, do you honestly believe that there is $500.00 more value in the leather? The pieces are all going to be just about the same size and shape for any given size. So price per square foot...??!!

    Given access, I can buy the best leather in the world, import it from abroad, pay shipping, customs, and brokerage fees and not feel any real pressure to charge significantly more. And I'm not at the top of the price ladder by a long shot. But then I don't sell "blue sky" either.

    Brand name is what sells the $1000.00+ shoe, not a significant difference in quality. Hell, according to some here, the box itself is worth the extra $500.00. What sells is superficiality--finish, lasts shapes (as if that had any direct bearing on fit or functionality), fashion and bragging rights. Those willing to pay for those benefits are welcome to them, including the box. All I'm doing is pointing out that the Emperor has no clothes. Perhaps not a great way to win friends at court.

    All that said, my perspective is as a shoemaker, not a customer...or a groupie, or a brand or nationality whore. I don't recommend or diss any brands...deliberately...for that very reason. It isn't about the price or the cachet, or the superficial appearance for me. It's about the objective quality.

    Sorry to disappoint.

    PS..."crap" is relative.

    --
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2012
  10. poorsod

    poorsod Senior member

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    Didn't you once mention the benefits of a conical last better matching the contours of the foot?
     
  11. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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    I suspect you're thinking of my preference for a last with an "inside cone". But this is not what I was referring to above.

    Of course, "shape" has something to do with fit. The last must embody the foot. An inside cone last more closely emulates the natural contours of the foot.

    But square "edges" on the sides of the forepart or round toes or chisel toes, etc., don't have any direct bearing on fit. And these are characteristics that people obsess over.

    Even the cross section of a last or the depth of the forepart or the girths in the instep or the curve of the heel--all aspects that are rightfully addressed in a bespoke shoe--have no impact on fit when it comes to RTW. They become concessions to fashion...silver tinsel to attract the magpie eye. Simply because they have no direct...repeat, direct...connection to the customer's foot.
     
  12. FlyingMonkey

    FlyingMonkey Senior member

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    So, in summary: unless you are going to get a shoe handmade especially for you by a real shoemaker, you should just buy whichever shoe from a reputable manufacturer that you find most aesthetically pleasing, regardless of price, because they are pretty much all the same?
     
  13. reidrothchild

    reidrothchild Senior member

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    :worship:

    My apologies for misinterpreting your post. I am certainly in no position to argue with you over the merits of $500 versus $1,000 shoes or, apparently, whether $50 shoes use "full grain leather." After reading your post, it appears that I don't know as much about uber-cheap shoes as I thought. To my untrained eye, there is a significant difference between what $100 and $500 buys one in terms of shoes. Then again, one of the main reasons I log on here virtually every day is to learn which of my previously held assumptions about men's clothing is incorrect. Thanks for sharing, DWFII.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2012
  14. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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    Maybe...depending on how you answer the question...

    Is ignorance really bliss?:satisfied:
    --
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2012
  15. Xenon

    Xenon Senior member

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    Let me personally vouch for this. I have recently purchased relatively small quantities of boxcalf directly from Annonay, Weinheimer (Freudenberg) and Ilcea, asking them for their finest quality, as well as sole leather from Baker and was tremendously surprised at how reasonable the costs were. Not really much more expensive than cheaper leathers. Of course in a factory setting these would be far more expensive than bulk synthetics and composite leathers used in bottom quality shoes (think Payless and the myriad of teenage fashion shoes).

    In fact we have seen right here on SF some entry level priced shoes using top of the line leathers.
     

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