Berg and Berg

[ericgereghty]

If you find the offense so great, then obviously that's your prerogative. I bought a polo shirt from them last year and didn't think the $30 difference was a big deal.

Of course. We may well place different levels of significance on truthfulness. I won't fault you for caring less than I do on that front.

 

[Viral]

Is almost $300 USD reasonable for trousers? Really??

must be nice for those who think “lemme get these while they’re such a deal!”

 

[dieworkwear]

Is almost $300 USD reasonable for trousers? Really??

must be nice for those who think “lemme get these while they’re such a deal!”

For tailored trousers, not wash and wear, made in Italy?

Have you looked outside?

There are basically two kinds of trousers: the kind of you wash and wear, and then tailored trousers. So if you think of chinos, wash and wear trousers are the kind of casual pants you find at J. Crew. Then there are tailored chinos, such as what you see from Ring Jacket and the like.

For tailored trousers, you can have them made at a variety of places. But the things I've seen on the market tend to be from China (cheapest), USA (Hertling and about $250 retail), Southwick (closing, but also around $250), and then Italy (Rota, mainly, which commonly ranges from $400 to even $900).

Not saying that Italian made or USA made is better. They have different cost structures, so their prices are different. But have you really not seen $300 trousers at this point?

"Entry-level pants" were like $200 ten years ago because a certain company had a sweetheart deal with Julie Hertling. That deal then got extended to a very small handful of brands. When Julie passed away, some structural issues came about that made it difficult for them to continue to offer that sweetheart deal.

With the inflation we've seen in the clothing trade, and the structural changes at Hertling, even Hertling-made pants nowadays are often $250-ish (we're talking full retail here, not sale, please don't use sale prices as real prices).

With Italian trousers, with shipping and duties, it's not uncommon to see trousers start at $300 for cotton and $400 for wool.

I don't know how Berg's trousers fit, so I'm not endorsing them. But $300 for wool trousers, made in Italy, is below average.

 

[Viral]

For tailored trousers, not wash and wear, made in Italy?

Have you looked outside?

There are basically two kinds of trousers: the kind of you wash and wear, and then tailored trousers. So if you think of chinos, wash and wear trousers are the kind of casual pants you find at J. Crew. Then there are tailored chinos, such as what you see from Ring Jacket and the like.

For tailored trousers, you can have them made at a variety of places. But the things I've seen on the market tend to be from China (cheapest), USA (Hertling and about $250 retail), Southwick (closing, but also around $250), and then Italy (Rota, mainly, which commonly ranges from $400 to even $900).

Not saying that Italian made or USA made is better. They have different cost structures, so their prices are different. But have you really not seen $300 trousers at this point?

"Entry-level pants" were like $200 ten years ago because a certain company had a sweetheart deal with Julie Hertling. That deal then got extended to a very small handful of brands. When Julie passed away, some structural issues came about that made it difficult for them to continue to offer that sweetheart deal.

With the inflation we've seen in the clothing trade, and the structural changes at Hertling, even Hertling-made pants nowadays are often $250-ish (we're talking full retail here, not sale, please don't use sale prices as real prices).

With Italian trousers, with shipping and duties, it's not uncommon to see trousers start at $300 for cotton and $400 for wool.

I don't know how Berg's trousers fit, so I'm not endorsing them. But $300 for wool trousers, made in Italy, is below average.

Interesting info, thx.

based on what you’ve said, there’s a premium to be paid because of the factors attributed to being made in Italy, however a superior product is a superior product regardless of where it’s made (IMO).

To answer your question, I’ve seen all types of trousers - even ones close to $1K. However I don’t subscribe to the higher-the-price-the-better-the-item groupthink, so even at $300 I’d have to be enamored by the item. And the reality is, B&B trousers is not where I’d spend my money for any clothing extravagances. I still don’t see what makes them so special - that silhouette is played out to me.

I think what Spier & Mackay are doing is more along my speed because I‘ve completed my sartorial revolution - I’ve “been there and done that” too many times to be convinced of any perceived value despite the made in Italy stamp and other such factors.

Oh and y’all can enjoy paying VAT when you don’t have to and continue to justify doing so - software issues or otherwise ?

 

[dieworkwear]

Interesting info, thx.

based on what you’ve said, there’s a premium to be paid because of the factors attributed to being made in Italy, however a superior product is a superior product regardless of where it’s made (IMO).

To answer your question, I’ve seen all types of trousers - even ones close to $1K. However I don’t subscribe to the higher-the-price-the-better-the-item groupthink, so even at $300 I’d have to be enamored by the item. And the reality is, B&B trousers is not where I’d spend my money for any clothing extravagances. I still don’t see what makes them so special - that silhouette is played out to me.

I think what Spier & Mackay are doing is more along my speed because I‘ve completed my sartorial revolution - I’ve “been there and done that” too many times to be convinced of any perceived value despite the made in Italy stamp and other such factors.

Oh and y’all can enjoy paying VAT when you don’t have to and continue to justify doing so - software issues or otherwise ?

I like Spier & MacKay and often recommend them to people. I think they do great work.

I'm not in any way shape or form saying that people have to be enamored with any brand. Or that made in XYZ country is better. Never said that higher price = higher quality. I don't think consumers should pay attention to quality at all, but instead how things look on them.

I'm only saying that $300 for made in Italy tailored trousers is below average. And trying to convey what I've seen on the market.

I do think that companies such as Spier & MacKay and Suitsupply have shifted what consumers are willing to pay for tailored clothing. I read someone on here once say that $1,200 is a ridiculous amount to pay for a suit. I remember ten years ago, $1,000 for a suit was pretty standard because most everything below that (e.g. J. Crew, Land's End, etc) was pretty terrible. It was also very, very hard to achieve the kind of fits seen on Iammatt unless you were willing to go bespoke. It's much easier to achieve that look now for much less money.

That said, I would not be surprised if the coronavirus pandemic claimed a huge portion of the fashion industry. I suspect many brands, factories, and retailers will close within a year. Many of them are also already pressed by the kind of comparison/ discount shopping discussed in this thread. I think it's worth drawing a straight line between consumer behavior and market outcomes. If people want to see brands survive, they have to pay full retail.

I worry that Hertling will close at some point. If and when they do, everyone who comparison shopped those pants to death will be complaining about how non-Chinese-made trousers are now $400.

There are two threads on this forum that mostly focus on the fashion industry. Every time a company goes under, it's always the discount shoppers who are the first to say they're shocked. In 30 years, maybe we'll just live in a world where there's no more tailoring or manufacturing in any of these post-industrial economies, and everything is sold through Amazon.

 

[ericgereghty]

Interesting info, thx.

based on what you’ve said, there’s a premium to be paid because of the factors attributed to being made in Italy, however a superior product is a superior product regardless of where it’s made (IMO).

To answer your question, I’ve seen all types of trousers - even ones close to $1K. However I don’t subscribe to the higher-the-price-the-better-the-item groupthink, so even at $300 I’d have to be enamored by the item. And the reality is, B&B trousers is not where I’d spend my money for any clothing extravagances. I still don’t see what makes them so special - that silhouette is played out to me.

I think what Spier & Mackay are doing is more along my speed because I‘ve completed my sartorial revolution - I’ve “been there and done that” too many times to be convinced of any perceived value despite the made in Italy stamp and other such factors.

Oh and y’all can enjoy paying VAT when you don’t have to and continue to justify doing so - software issues or otherwise ?

B&B is objectively superior to S&M (and I love S&M) from a quality perspective.
I don’t even love B&B’s cut (too low rise and slim for me), but they make a damn good product, and one that is absolutely competitively priced, particularly when you’re talking about trousers.

 

[Viral]

I like Spier & MacKay and often recommend them to people. I think they do great work.

I'm not in any way shape or form saying that people have to be enamored with any brand. Or that made in XYZ country is better. Never said that higher price = higher quality. I don't think consumers should pay attention to quality at all, but instead how things look on them.

I'm only saying that $300 for made in Italy tailored trousers is below average. And trying to convey what I've seen on the market.

I do think that companies such as Spier & MacKay and Suitsupply have shifted what consumers are willing to pay for tailored clothing. I read someone on here once say that $1,200 is a ridiculous amount to pay for a suit. I remember ten years ago, $1,000 for a suit was pretty standard because most everything below that (e.g. J. Crew, Land's End, etc) was pretty terrible. It was also very, very hard to achieve the kind of fits seen on Iammatt unless you were willing to go bespoke. It's much easier to achieve that look now for much less money.

That said, I would not be surprised if the coronavirus pandemic claimed a huge portion of the fashion industry. I suspect many brands, factories, and retailers will close within a year. Many of them are also already pressed by the kind of comparison/ discount shopping discussed in this thread. I think it's worth drawing a straight line between consumer behavior and market outcomes. If people want to see brands survive, they have to pay full retail.

I worry that Hertling will close at some point. If and when they do, everyone who comparison shopped those pants to death will be complaining about how non-Chinese-made trousers are now $400.

There are two threads on this forum that mostly focus on the fashion industry. Every time a company goes under, it's always the discount shoppers who are the first to say they're shocked. In 30 years, maybe we'll just live in a world where there's no more tailoring or manufacturing in any of these post-industrial economies, and everything is sold through Amazon.

Amen - It’s usually the ones with the least brand knowledge, who don’t even shop at the brand, and don’t even know enough about how business works who do the most posting of bullshit and gossip! Just look at the BB thread.....yikes!!

 

[tnd]

B&B is objectively superior to S&M (and I love S&M) from a quality perspective.
I don’t even love B&B’s cut (too low rise and slim for me), but they make a damn good product, and one that is absolutely competitively priced, particularly when you’re talking about trousers.

Can you clarify what you mean by low rise as i see most of their trousers are high rise.

Thanks

 

[ericgereghty]

Can you clarify what you mean by low rise as i see most of their trousers are high rise.

Thanks

They aren’t low rise, by how most consider it. I think their standard sizing features around a 12” rise. To me, that’s low-ish, but I’m probably more of an extremist on that front.
If you’re a normal person, B&B high rise would almost certainly qualify as at least high-ish rise.

 

[TokenMao]

Is almost $300 USD reasonable for trousers? Really??

must be nice for those who think “lemme get these while they’re such a deal!”

Interesting info, thx.

based on what you’ve said, there’s a premium to be paid because of the factors attributed to being made in Italy, however a superior product is a superior product regardless of where it’s made (IMO).

To answer your question, I’ve seen all types of trousers - even ones close to $1K. However I don’t subscribe to the higher-the-price-the-better-the-item groupthink, so even at $300 I’d have to be enamored by the item. And the reality is, B&B trousers is not where I’d spend my money for any clothing extravagances. I still don’t see what makes them so special - that silhouette is played out to me.

I think what Spier & Mackay are doing is more along my speed because I‘ve completed my sartorial revolution - I’ve “been there and done that” too many times to be convinced of any perceived value despite the made in Italy stamp and other such factors.

Oh and y’all can enjoy paying VAT when you don’t have to and continue to justify doing so - software issues or otherwise ?

Quality" (however you want to define that) doesn't need to increase linearly with price, as in a $300 pair of pants doesn't need to be exactly 2x as good as a $150 pair of pants. The argument that something isn't worth it because you're getting less bang for buck is baffling to me (not saying that you're doing this) because that's only one piece of it. At the end of the day you're buying clothes to enjoy them and be worn, if you like an item and it makes you happy why does it matter if it's not the best bang for buck out there?

I think one thing people don't keep in mind is that there's a very real cost to design that gets passed on as a part of the price - part of the reason why "value" companies like Spier & Mackay can keeps costs so low (in addition to accepting lower margins and having cheaper labor etc.) is because by and large they're just emulating designs and makeups of what's already been proven popular and successful by others. E.g. Drakes ran a green seersucker suit for SS19, Spier & Mackay ran a similar green seersucker suit for SS20. Or the people ordering Calways from Carmina being like "why would anyone pay 2x the price for EG Galways" when they're literally buying a copy of the Galway design. I don't think it's a bad thing to create more accessibility for these things but it's absurd to expect the companies coming up with the designs and paying photographers and models to shoot the lookbooks etc. to be able to be just as cheap as a company who's only responsible for the literally making the thing. If everyone had that optimization for a subjective price to quality ratio mentality and stop buying from the companies actually making the designs too then everything just falls apart.

Anyway I'm not saying you're literally doing this, it's just whenever I see a post that includes "why would anyone pay (insert mid level price for an item), that's outrageous, you can get something just as good from (Spier & Mackay / Allen Edmonds / insert other popular value brand) for half the price!" I'm like :|. Liking the item and enjoying wearing it should be enough justification to purchase something...

 

[Wrenkin]

I can imagine sitting on the other side of this equation: a guy on Styleforum wants to buy a made-in-Italy suit. It has been discounted to $923. Shipping to the US is free. He wants another 20% off, which means he wants to pay $738. I don't know how much Berg pays for their suits, but the linen I've seen wholesales for $40/m. That's $160 in fabric, plus cut, make, and trim. Add to that shipping. I can easily see feeling this is pointless and maybe even destroys your brand (how many people who want VAT discounts also accuse brands like Brooks Brothers of relying too much on discounting?).

I am generally with you in these arguments (i.e. just focus on what something is worth to you, don't approach clothing like you would a commodity desktop PC, clothing should be fun, etc.) However, "He wants another 20% off" is an interesting way to rephrase "He doesn't want to pay more than the store is charging to EU residents". And, what's more, "He doesn't want to pay the duty and sales tax charged on the marginal 20% that isn't charged to Europeans. Because they can't figure out their software."

I buy plenty of stuff from the US and have it shipped to Canada. I would of course be annoyed if an NY-based website decided to charge me New York City and State sales tax (which marginal amount I would then have to pay Canadian sales tax on). I would still be annoyed if they declared that, no, it's not a tax, Canadians just pay exactly 8.875% more, for.... reasons, (and if I don't like it the proprietor will go on SF and tell everyone I'm ruining the industry for everyone). I would also be annoyed if they pre-charged me duties on items where no duties are applicable. (Which eBay global shipping actually does!)

Does that extra money B&B are charging subsidize international shipping for all their whiny overseas customers? Maybe. I suppose B&B are doing their best to survive in a tough industry, and they think the business case for stating the VAT inclusive and exclusive prices are the same is worth the backlash. But it's still bizarre to me that you think asking for VAT "discounts" is... inelegant?

 

[dieworkwear]

I am generally with you in these arguments (i.e. just focus on what something is worth to you, don't approach clothing like you would a commodity desktop PC, clothing should be fun, etc.) However, "He wants another 20% off" is an interesting way to rephrase "He doesn't want to pay more than the store is charging to EU residents". And, what's more, "He doesn't want to pay the duty and sales tax charged on the marginal 20% that isn't charged to Europeans. Because they can't figure out their software."

I buy plenty of stuff from the US and have it shipped to Canada. I would of course be annoyed if an NY-based website decided to charge me New York City and State sales tax (which marginal amount I would then have to pay Canadian sales tax on). I would still be annoyed if they declared that, no, it's not a tax, Canadians just pay exactly 8.875% more, for.... reasons, (and if I don't like it the proprietor will go on SF and tell everyone I'm ruining the industry for everyone). I would also be annoyed if they pre-charged me duties on items where no duties are applicable. (Which eBay global shipping actually does!)

Does that extra money B&B are charging subsidize international shipping for all their whiny overseas customers? Maybe. I suppose B&B are doing their best to survive in a tough industry, and they think the business case for stating the VAT inclusive and exclusive prices are the same is worth the backlash. But it's still bizarre to me that you think asking for VAT "discounts" is... inelegant?

I don't think I said anything about elegance? I only said that I think Berg's prices are fair for what they deliver. I don't have any opinion on why they don't refund VAT. For my purchases, I find the amount to be so small, I don't see the reason to care.

There seem to be two ways to view this: you can either judge the fairness of the price in terms of what you're receiving, or you can judge the price relative to other prices and/ or the process.

All my purchases from Berg have been small -- a polo shirt, a couple of ties, some things like that. I've never bought something as big as outerwear. For small-ticket items, where the VAT refund would be under $100 or so, I find this to be more trouble than it's worth, especially when the brand already provides great value for the money.

When you look through this thread, it's the same dynamic that takes over many CM threads: a very hard game where people wait for sales. There was one guy who bought something at 30% off. The next day, it was discounted to 40% off. Someone suggested that he just purchase again and return the first order. (This sort of stuff happens in every thread, I'm not singling out this person). Then there are people who ask if anyone knows where something is made, so they can comparison shop some more.

In these conditions, I'm not terribly surprised that a small company isn't very sympathetic. I assume there are like three or four people working at Berg. They are probably short-staffed. So then I imagine they get an email from someone who bought something at 30-40% off. That person might have a history of making returns. They buy small items. They only shop on sale. Now this person wants another 20% off for VAT.

I mean, at some point, it just seems ridiculous. I hear these complaints over and over again from brands and retailers who feel there's a certain kind of online shopper who's just a PITA to deal with. I also think many of these people often act surprised when their favorite company goes under ("that was my favorite place to shop on sale!").

If you're some kind of big-time spender at Berg (which would not be me) and you regularly pay full price (also would not be me), then maybe you can kindly ask them to deduct VAT. I've bought a few small things here and there, some of them on sale and some at full price. It has nothing to do with elegance and more to do with how I wouldn't want to treat people in a certain way.

Their trousers retail for something like $315. I have no idea what they pay in terms of cost structure. I know the fabrics they use wholesale for about $30 to $40/ meter. It takes 1.5m to make a pair of trousers. So let's say $50 for material. Add cut, make, and trim. What's the factory's price? Then what does the factory sell it for? Then what does Berg sell it for? If I had to guess, I assume they buy those pants for $150.

Right now, the pants are $193. Berg ships for free. Who knows how much they even make once you account for rent and labor.

I recently spoke to someone about the term "Karen" (which seems to be a sexist word as there's no male equivalent for Karen, but that's another story). Anyway, someone didn't know what the term "Karen" meant. I explained to the person. This person then replied and said "well, sometimes I want to speak to the manager because I think the person is trying to get over on me." That, to me, seems to be the point. Some people have a real hang-up about whether they're extracting as much as possibile from a deal, or whether someone got over on them. Buy pants or don't buy pants, but this kind of petty consumer behavior seems like a male version of being a Karen.

 

[Zerase]

So what this really is about is that people don’t want to pay as much as us Europeans? You don’t know how nice you have it. For us Europeans it is expensive as hell to buy clothes from the US. I once paid more in import duties than the actual price on the clothes I bought. But I guess if you want to squeeze every last penny from a company to get a good deal, go buy SuSus bi-annual outlet instead.

 

[dieworkwear]

So what this really is about is that people don’t want to pay as much as us Europeans? You don’t know how nice you have it. For us Europeans it is expensive as hell to buy clothes from the US. I once paid more in import duties than the actual price on the clothes I bought. But I guess if you want to squeeze every last penny from a company to get a good deal, go buy SuSus bi-annual outlet instead.

I think Americans tend to see the VAT discount as an extra coupon code. It's like a freebie. So when the coupon code doesn't work, it's natural to feel a bit of frustration or dissatisfaction.

Some may also know that VAT is a tax that the company is ultimately supposed to pay to the government. Since Americans are exempt from the tax, it feels like someone is keeping "your money."

I don't know. I both see the logic, but also feel for small brands who are not able to process this stuff, as well as brands who feel like they're just constantly getting squeezed. I think sometimes people move through these transactions as though they're dealing with some faceless conglomerate. And they want to get something for as little money as possible. It just ends up being a death spiral for mid-tier brands. When in Europe, I sometimes find that some stores refund VAT and some don't (there's also the VAT counter at the airport, but that's a huge pain **********). I've been told why some stores don't refund VAT, but I have no idea what's the truth of the matter. I find it most sensible to just judge the final price and decide whether you want to pay given the goods/ services at hand.

 

[stuffedsuperdud]

@dieworkwear the damn thing about Karens is that, aside from the trending ones who are committing actual acts of violence, they are often technically not wrong. It's more a matter of, "just because you can doesn't mean you should" and their self-centeredness makes them abrasive, since human interactions are by definition not about yourself but about your interface with the world. So quibbling over a VAT remains a valid issue since it is technically on the side of right to do so, and it doesn't matter that there is probably a logical reason for this or that your time is better spent solving actual problems in your life and not issues you manufactured for yourself because you couldn't just get your pants at Costco like a real man.

But this is all relatively tame and civil bro. Have you seen the comments sections for higher end mainstream retailers like Saks or Nordstrom? It's ******* insufferable how cruel and arrogant a 23-year-old woman (not trying to be overtly sexist, just that their clientele is basically the opposite of our suited sausagefest) can be when she feels like someone owes her something.