Australian Members

[TheWraith]

Probably one of the plethora of offshore MTM operations that have popped up the last few years or so, but I could well be mistaken. If anyone has details of Tom James, feel free to share them here.

I'm old fashioned. I prefer bespoke to be referred to as bespoke and MTM to be referred to as MTM. You can get good results with both, exceptional results with both and I've used both, but be honest about the product you supply. I got full bespoke from Zink & Sons in Sydney (full floating canvas, handmade buttonholes, hand rolled lapels, horn buttons, Holland & Sherry wool, three fittings) for a little over $2,000. That was in 2010, so prices will no doubt have changed, but you can get the full service for not that much more than you pay for offshore MTM from certain companies. I've also used MTM, currently do so, with great results. You choose the service that gives you the product you want for the price you can afford. That's how it should be. No problem there.

[quote author="Romp"]Also I think you will find the only true bespoke tailors in that article are Bijan and Cutler.[/quote]

Incorrect. Zink is a bespoke tailor. Their suits are made in their upstairs workroom. New patterns are drafted, Robert or Daniel cut the patterns etc.

[quote author="cemi1988"]but i'd hazard a guess and say were this forum not discussing pjohnson, but a lesser known retailer, or a retailer without the cult following pjohnson has on this board in particular, the distinction between bespoke and mto and tailor and fitter would suddenly become more relevant.[/quote]

+1

 

[The Ernesto]



What are you guys some secret society?

Do you wear socks?

 

[The Ernesto]



Odd question but has anyone seen olive chinos for sale anywhere recently?

How odd, was thinking about this the other day!

Left field suggestion, sometimes GAP has green pants.

 

[JimmyHoffa]

I prefer bespoke to be referred to as bespoke and MTM to be referred to as MTM. You can get good results with both, but be honest about the product you supply.

But that's the point - MTM is bespoke. It's a 'type' of bespoke. So they are technically not wrong in not correcting the newspaper articles.

Zink and Sons, full bespoke suit for $2,000? Are you sure?

 

[TheWraith]

Like I said in my post, it was just over $2,000 and it was in 2010, so no doubt prices have gone up since then. But yes, that was the price 3 1/2 years ago.

 

[JimmyHoffa]

Here's my layman's understanding of bespoke vs MTM:

With bespoke, I have to specify style and cut, select the fabric, and outline all the various specifications - lapel width, shoulder style, structure, padding, canvassing, pocket style and placement, vents and so forth.

You can customise all of that when ordering a suit from Patrick. If you want your breast pocket moved up 1 cm from the 'pattern' suit you are wearing, they can do that for you.

So by your definition, Patrick is bespoke.

 

[TheWraith]

With bespoke, a pattern is drafted specifically for you from scratch. With MTM, a pre-existing pattern is altered to suit you. A tailor is someone who can draft and cut a pattern, as well as measure and offer fit/style advice etc. A fitter is someone who measures you and offers fit/style advice, but is unable to draft/cut a pattern.

Now, you can get superb results going either bespoke or MTM, so that's all that matters to the customer at the end of the day (as well as price factors), but bespoke is bespoke, and MTM is MTM (and a tailor is a tailor and a fitter a fitter) and I will never alter my opinion on that!

 

[charliechan]

Probably one of the plethora of offshore MTM operations that have popped up the last few years or so, but I could well be mistaken. If anyone has details of Tom James, feel free to share them here.

I'm old fashioned. I prefer bespoke to be referred to as bespoke and MTM to be referred to as MTM. You can get good results with both, exceptional results with both and I've used both, but be honest about the product you supply. I got full bespoke from Zink & Sons in Sydney (full floating canvas, handmade buttonholes, hand rolled lapels, horn buttons, Holland & Sherry wool, three fittings) for a little over $2,000. That was in 2010, so prices will no doubt have changed, but you can get the full service for not that much more than you pay for offshore MTM from certain companies. I've also used MTM, currently do so, with great results. You choose the service that gives you the product you want for the price you can afford. That's how it should be. No problem there.
Incorrect. Zink is a bespoke tailor. Their suits are made in their upstairs workroom. New patterns are drafted, Robert or Daniel cut the patterns etc.
+1

It will be good to hear more about Zink & Sons ... can you comment on the quality / fit of your suit Wraith?

 

[TheWraith]

Excellent quality and fit (both suit and sport coat were from Holland & Sherry wool, both had a full floating canvas with horn buttons etc.), though that was my first bespoke experience and I've honed my fit to an even better level since then. That's how it goes with both bespoke and MTM. It gets better as you go along.

Both Robert and Daniel Jones were incredibly friendly and knowledgeable of the industry and the craft of bespoke tailoring. Robert regaled me with anecdotes of the past (he's been at this game since the 1960s after all) that both educated and entertained me. They'll gladly take you on a tour of the upstairs workroom, too, if you like, to see your (and other) garments being made onsite.

btw, Zink also do MTM as well as bespoke, for those price conscious customers out there.

 

[Arch3r]

With bespoke, a pattern is drafted specifically for you from scratch. With MTM, a pre-existing pattern is altered to suit you. A tailor is someone who can draft and cut a pattern, as well as measure and offer fit/style advice etc. A fitter is someone who measures you and offers fit/style advice, but is unable to draft/cut a pattern.

Now, you can get superb results going either bespoke or MTM, so that's all that matters to the customer at the end of the day (as well as price factors), but bespoke is bespoke, and MTM is MTM (and a tailor is a tailor and a fitter a fitter) and I will never alter my opinion on that!

This.

Bespoke - going to an architect to design you a house from the ground up.

MTM - Going to X estate and picking a house off the plans, you get to move stuff around and tweak it but it wasn't designed from the ground up for you.

On Zink & Sons, I spoke to Daniel around a year ago and prices seemed pretty reasonable MTM from $1500 Bespoke from $2k. They had some great stuff there, very English. There are some very out there pieces in their gallery online as well if that's your cup of tea. Unless I inherit the clan fortune and move to Scotland to spend my days hunting and strolling I won't be going for that sort of thing =P

On PJ being called a 'tailor' technically he isn't is my understanding but its not like we are calling a cat a dog. People call Heston a chef but he isn't formally trained does that mean he's only a cook or a food enthusiast? Food for thought...

 

[TheWraith]

^ Exactly right. At the end of the day, while the job descriptions are what they are, all that matters is that you get exactly the quality product you want and can afford, from whomever is supplying said product. No issue there at all.

 

[nabilmust]

This is becoming a shitfest.

In sum, and I'm starting to regret even starting:

Patrick isn't bespoke. MS, your understanding of bespoke is a little superficial. Quoting the dictionary isn't going to help. A little background might help: true bespoke when it started, or when clothes were 'spoken for' someone, it was made so specifically for that one person that he was the only person who had that fabric.But that was back then. This meaning has diluted.

In a very elementary way, the dichotomy, like Wraith has mentioned: is the pattern. Do you work off a block? MTM. Do you cut a brand new pattern for someone? Bespoke.

Cox: What you get at TF and Canali's boutique, is another example of what the meaning of MTM has diluted to. What you're getting is really OTR, with a highly adjustable parameters. It's already been made but not to your measure; it is then finished to your adjustments. Zegna used to have an MTM program, then it faded, and they're resurrecting it.


@Gazman and @cemi1988 -

There is no debate whether they are bespoke or not. That's been settled, at least in my eyes.

The real debate is whether they should be correcting every article or publication that mischaracterises them as bespoke. I suppose it gets tiring and it distracts one from their focus: making clothes.

It's all a bit like if people wish me Merry Christmas, and I have to keep replying: oh no, I'm not Christian.

 

[CHECKstar]

So how much does pj cost?

$3.50

I have him a dollar... I thought he'd go away...

 

[Gazman]

Fair enough. I'm bloody sorry I raised the issue. Was not aware it was such a hot issue on this forum. I raised it in response to another member posting a link to a recent article feature P Johnson. Have a good day.

 

[Sartorial Scum]

This is becoming a shitfest.

In sum, and I'm starting to regret even starting:

Patrick isn't bespoke. MS, your understanding of bespoke is a little superficial. Quoting the dictionary isn't going to help. A little background might help: true bespoke when it started, or when clothes were 'spoken for' someone, it was made so specifically for that one person that he was the only person who had that fabric.But that was back then. This meaning has diluted.

In a very elementary way, the dichotomy, like Wraith has mentioned: is the pattern. Do you work off a block? MTM. Do you cut a brand new pattern for someone? Bespoke.

Cox: What you get at TF and Canali's boutique, is another example of what the meaning of MTM has diluted to. What you're getting is really OTR, with a highly adjustable parameters. It's already been made but not to your measure; it is then finished to your adjustments. Zegna used to have an MTM program, then it faded, and they're resurrecting it.


@Gazman and @cemi1988 -

There is no debate whether they are bespoke or not. That's been settled, at least in my eyes.

The real debate is whether they should be correcting every article or publication that mischaracterises them as bespoke. I suppose it gets tiring and it distracts one from their focus: making clothes.

It's all a bit like if people wish me Merry Christmas, and I have to keep replying: oh no, I'm not Christian.

^This